Here's a video explaining the exercise in a little more detail.

https://drive.google.com/...moy/view?usp=sharing

You can also try this one.

https://drive.google.com/...o1i/view?usp=sharing

In terms of what you want to feel, you'll feel SUPPORTED when it's done well. The ball exercise is useful for feeling the total support. The elevator exercise is useful for FINDING the support when you swim. As you go from high to low, you should pass through the sweet spot. If you go slow and stay patient, you should find it.

Alternate the two exercises until it clicks.

It's not necessarily a hard skill to learn, but it's pretty foreign to what people have experienced in the past. Stick with it even if it doesn't happen right away.

Some ideas that might help-

LEAN into the water with your body
Try pressing the head, the chest, or both.
When done well, you'll feel pressure on your face and upper body, and lightness in your lower body.

Everyone's a little bit different, and what you have to do can be different for different people.

Let me know how it goes and I can help you troubleshoot, if necessary. Hopefully, it's not:).

The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).

Thoughts?

Hi. I have 3 questions based on the video (1.16/100m, scm):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEc_y-gHNG4



1) Should I breathe to the left or to the right from your coaching perspective?

2) How often should I implement breathing to the wrong side?

3) What should be my technical focus based on the video?

Background: started swimming at 28/29 (2016/2017), Had a break due to injury November 2017-april 2018 and due to covid September 2020 - august 2021 (pool closed). Had a pb of 10x50m @ 1.00 averaging 45sec and 1.06-1.08-1.05 in my ironman swims until august 2019. Worked a year with a tri coach and was able to break 30sec for 50m (scm) and go 30.0 (LCM). I have always preferred breathing to the left but after the covid break it has started to feel good breathing to the right.

I feel that the recovery with my right arm gets somewhat tight when I breath to the left. And the breathing drill you prescribed to someone else probably applies to me as well

Tried the drills today and I’m 100% certain I was too shallow with my head and chest. Not sure how much faster my times got from this change, but I’m thinking at least 5s/100yd!! Thanks for articulating that nugget of info, it really helped me out.

First off, if you feel like this is helping you, I would caution you changing much.

My perspective-

I watched the video and the concepts of center of flotation/center of mass, why the legs sink, etc, is all spot on. However, you CAN influence the balance by pressing the chest and head. That's how you affect the situation. It requires much less effort and is much more effective than actively lifting the legs. If you watch one of the first underwater videos of some one swimming in the link, there head is high and their hips are low. Like a see-saw press the head, the hips come up, and the legs follow.

You may have a unique situation. The position you are describing (C-cup) is one where you are creating more drag than you need to. I am not sure exactly what you mean by the positions you can't get into. Clearly, you need to avoid pain and any way you can swim without pain is superior to one where you are in pain.

Have you tried rotating a little bit more? For those with should problems during the recovery, this can sometimes take the pressure off the shoulders, and you won't need to get your arms directly overhead.

If you absolutely cannot get into a straight positon and press the chest because of your shoulders, then what you are doing is probably making the best of a compromised situation. However, for any one else that is NOT in this situation, you are much better off leveraging your lungs than pulling up your legs. This particularly true if you plan on using your legs in a triathlon!

Pure anecdote- I was a pretty good swimmer (relatively speaking) and I have never ever though about consciously lifting my legs. I have never heard another swim coach mention it, and I have never had a swimmer mention it. If you press the chest appropriate, the legs come up automatically.

Let me know what you think about that, and how it relates to your specific situation.

The short answer is if you can't swim 100 yards/meters in less than 1:20 (and your threshold speed is necessarily slower than that). Of course, this isn't a hard and fast rule and it depends on age.

If you can't achieve those speeds, your problem is a technical one, not a fitness one. All the fitness training in the world will only result in marginal improvement, whereas improving your skills can result in substantial improvements.

This is such an interesting statement. I don't know if I should be extremely discouraged, or extremely hopeful.

I've been swimming for about 6 months now, and I still can't swim even a 100 under 1:20, even when I feel like I'm giving a max effort. I've recently been getting better at 8-10x100 @ 1:50 coming in on 1:35-1:40 with masters swim, but that's essentially a max effort by the end, and I'm slowing down a bit, too (1:40-1:45 by last reps).

I've been trying to move more powerfully through the pull and be more streamlined in the recovery phase with a bit more of a glide, but I'm at a loss as to how I could take my current fitness and go 15 secs/100 faster.

Is it simply a matter of time and work? I've raced bikes for 15 years, so of course someone riding for a year asking how they can put out similar power typically results in a response of doing many more miles and years of training, but that's aerobically based and not really that technique-dominated.

The idea that I'm that draggy in the water makes me think of sitting bolt upright on a bike with a parachute; something I'd never want to knowingly do in training or racing.

The 30.0 LCM wasn't legit (My friend started the clock when I jumped from the block, he didnt start me). And it was before the covid break. I can't get the same speed on my arms now (at least not yet) but will hopefully get there again with time. But yes, I was very satisfied with that since both my dolphin kicks and my starting skills off the blocks are terrible.

I always keep track of times but I rarely do a stroke count. I have a lot of technical noise in my head but will try to start counting. Will a tempo trainer be of any help to make sure I do not slow down/increase my stroke rate?

If I understand you correctly I will:

Breathe to the right all the time, except for 10-20% (part of warm ups and cool downs mostly), try the paddle drill (especially on my left) and see if that kind of breathing (i.e holding my head down) will help even when breathing on my right side. Focus will be on both training and technique but the former will probably yield the biggest result.

Your comment regarding maintaining speed is interesting. Definitely something I will need to consider as I have noted that my first length always is faster than the rest. My push off is probably better, which gives a higher starting speed. Hmm.

I will try to get some footage from underwater and the front too. This was really helpful. Thanks a lot.

This is such an interesting statement. I don't know if I should be extremely discouraged, or extremely hopeful.

I've been swimming for about 6 months now, and I still can't swim even a 100 under 1:20, even when I feel like I'm giving a max effort. I've recently been getting better at 8-10x100 @ 1:50 coming in on 1:35-1:40 with masters swim, but that's essentially a max effort by the end, and I'm slowing down a bit, too (1:40-1:45 by last reps).

I've been trying to move more powerfully through the pull and be more streamlined in the recovery phase with a bit more of a glide, but I'm at a loss as to how I could take my current fitness and go 15 secs/100 faster.

Is it simply a matter of time and work? I've raced bikes for 15 years, so of course someone riding for a year asking how they can put out similar power typically results in a response of doing many more miles and years of training, but that's aerobically based and not really that technique-dominated.

The idea that I'm that draggy in the water makes me think of sitting bolt upright on a bike with a parachute; something I'd never want to knowingly do in training or racing.

Update to my earlier post:


Wow, the head thing helped a lot. Thanks man! I am not wobbling up and down as much and it felt like there was no resistance at all compared to what I am used to. 1.24/100m with an easy 2-beat felt really good and 1.14/100m with a 4-beat was taxing, but not like it normally is. Very curious to see how long it will take to get used to breathing like that.

Fun fact: I stood bent in front of a mirror (I am quite a slow learner) for almost 20 minutes (yes, I had to take breaks) before I understood how to move the body to breathe without lifting my head. Definitely worth it!

Also: how long should you stay on the back (after having pushed off the wall) until you put one foot behind the other and turn over on your belly? I have been thinking about your statement regarding maintaining speed and I think my main problem is that I dont generate enough speed out from each turn.

I'd take that 1:20 for 100 as 'all technique' with a massive grain of salt.

If it really were just all technique, 80 year olds with no arthritis limiters would still be dominating masters swims everywhere, as 1:20/100 over distance usually puts you in the front groups. Obviously, this is not the case.

These kind of statements are common from people with a lot of natural gifts. If you jumped in the pool, and were swimming 1:20s pretty much in a few months, of course you'd think everyone could do it. Similarly, there are more than a few kids who start x-country running, and start dropping sub 16:30 5ks in less than a year - for them, they would say that anything slower than 20:00/5k pace is a joke and you should probably quit running altogether. In swimming, it's has the extra dimension of being able to blame both technique and fitness for not being fast, but technique gets given an outsized role by these fast swimmers.

Here's another perspective if it really was ALL technique. Find any of these effortless 1:20/100 all day type swimmers. Make them use terrible technique on purpose in some way to mess up their form. Like swim with one arm literally wrapped around their neck the entire time. Or swim doggy style full dropped elbows. Or put a full dress on them to make megadrag. They will STILL swim faster than 75-90% of all triathletes, and likely faster than 1:35/100. For sure, they will NOT be doing 2:00/100 like a beginner. The fitness component in swimming is absolutely huge, and for a non elite AG triathlete with wetsuits in OWS, I could see how one could argue it might be more important than technique after a beginner level.

If you raise your head *without pushing down on the water to do so* your legs will also rise (again, conservation of angular momentum). You raise your head by using your muscles, not by pushing down on the water.

You highlighted the key caveat that I have underlined. The problem is that you can't do this. If one side of the seesaw goes up (the head) the other will go down (the hips and legs). You can't prevent it. You can compensate to some degree by arching the back. This comes at a cost as you are creating a poorly streamlined vessel.

klehner wrote:

The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).

Thoughts?

I'd take that 1:20 for 100 as 'all technique' with a massive grain of salt.

If it really were just all technique, 80 year olds with no arthritis limiters would still be dominating masters swims everywhere, as 1:20/100 over distance usually puts you in the front groups. Obviously, this is not the case.

These kind of statements are common from people with a lot of natural gifts. If you jumped in the pool, and were swimming 1:20s pretty much in a few months, of course you'd think everyone could do it. Similarly, there are more than a few kids who start x-country running, and start dropping sub 16:30 5ks in less than a year - for them, they would say that anything slower than 20:00/5k pace is a joke and you should probably quit running altogether. In swimming, it's has the extra dimension of being able to blame both technique and fitness for not being fast, but technique gets given an outsized role by these fast swimmers.

Here's another perspective if it really was ALL technique. Find any of these effortless 1:20/100 all day type swimmers. Make them use terrible technique on purpose in some way to mess up their form. Like swim with one arm literally wrapped around their neck the entire time. Or swim doggy style full dropped elbows. Or put a full dress on them to make megadrag. They will STILL swim faster than 75-90% of all triathletes, and likely faster than 1:35/100. For sure, they will NOT be doing 2:00/100 like a beginner. The fitness component in swimming is absolutely huge, and for a non elite AG triathlete with wetsuits in OWS, I could see how one could argue it might be more important than technique after a beginner level.

I'll just respond to this, as I've mucked up your thread enough.

If an astronaut is in a weightless environment and he pushes his head towards his back, his legs will go towards his back, too (his back will become more and more arched). That's the extreme example of what happens in the pool if you push your head up by using your back/hip/leg muscles: your legs go up, as well. Your see-saw analogy doesn't work here, as neither the swimmer nor the astronaut are moving around a *fixed* pivot point. The buoyancy of your lungs doesn't change the physics: it can change the depth of your body in the water or *maybe* the angle of your body, but the physics say that your legs must go towards your head.

Actually, those sedentary ex-D1 swimmers will NOT be impressive - until they train enough to get enough fitness and feel back.

Andrew - While he is indeed an AOS, you should know that "klehner" is no beginner. He started swimming at age 26 and by age 29 he was going 51 for the 100 scy. His stroke is all pull with a high turnover rate and very little kick. Thus the stuff you guys are debating is pretty much academic in his case as he doesn't really need any help to go fast. Just thought you should know his background. :)

The whole back and forth on this has me completely befuddled. The video indicates that feet sink because the center of mass is closer to the feet than the center of flotation.
Let's say one is in the water with a straight body (i.e., arms overhead, and arms and legs straight and together with arms/hands/head/neck/spine/legs/feet all in the same plane) but the plane of the body is not horizontal (because of the center of mass/flotation thing). How would the center of mass of the body be moved headward or the center of flotation be moved legward by contracting muscles that, if unopposed would raise the legs above the plain of the rest of the body. (I say unopposed because the video does not show the person in a bowed shape with feet above the plane of the rest of the body -- but even if the bowed shape is the intent, it doesn't seem there would be a balancing of flotation and mass unless the person is a Cirque du Soleil acrobat, but in that case good luck swimming like that.)

Also, I think the comments regarding preservation of angular momentum are misplaced. We don't care if we need to spend a little energy to get horizontal (e.g., at the beginning of a tri with a deep water start, we wouldn't sit there after the cannon goes off and try to do the magic floaty thing and wait until we are horizontal before we start swimming). The idea of the video, I think, is to get the centers of balance and mass to occupy the same point so we do not need to spend any energy to stay horizontal.

Anyway, I admit I don't understand what is happening with the magic floaty thing, but I don't think it matters. If indeed the centers of mass and flotation are merging, activating the same muscles while swimming won't do the same trick because when we swim we no longer keep both arms extended overhead -- so our center of mass is further back and thus not merged with floatation.

Now for the "press your chest." I agree with you when you ask what are you pushing against to make your chest go down. I don't think the human body has a set of muscles to press your chest down in the water that wouldn't also involve pressing your feet down. But I don't think the "press your chest" advice is necessarily wrong. I think its allegorical. It might be more literal to say "keep your chest down." The coach doesn't want to say "keep you head down" because that might induce the swimmers to get their head below alignment with the body. So how would swimmers keep their chest down? -- By doing that "feel for the water" thing. If one's chest is higher than mere flotation would have it, there must be a vertical force getting it there. It could be that the stroke has a vertical force component so the swimmer (maybe without knowing it) starts pulling more horizontally. Maybe there is a little kick action that gets the feet up so the plane of the body is not generating lift. But in any case, I think I agree with you that the swimmer is not literally pressing the chest down.

Rant over -- carry on.

You are missing the point. The major component in swimming is reducing drag. The major component in running is p/w. Have you never met "fat swimmer guy" who hasnt been to a pool, nor worked out, for 20 years. but still swims laps areound you? Sure, there is some strength required to move properly in the water, but going sub 1.20scy once doesnt require any fitness. Doing series like 10x100 is a different story but that wasnt what MasteringFlow claimed.