My name is Andrew and I am college swim coach. I am also a USAT Level I Coach.
I love working with triathletes to help them improve their skills in the water, particularly those without a swimming background, and without access to formal in-person coaching.
If you have questions about how to improve your skills in the water, please shoot them my way in this thread.
I'd be happy to help to the best of my ability.
The more information you provide about your context (years swimming, approximate swimming speed, etc), and the more specific your question is, the more effectively I'll be able to help you out.
My name is Andrew and I am college swim coach. I am also a USAT Level I Coach.
I love working with triathletes to help them improve their skills in the water, particularly those without a swimming background, and without access to formal in-person coaching.
If you have questions about how to improve your skills in the water, please shoot them my way in this thread.
I'd be happy to help to the best of my ability.
The more information you provide about your context (years swimming, approximate swimming speed, etc), and the more specific your question is, the more effectively I'll be able to help you out.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Andrew
I've always swam, (was the fast kid in the slow lane), technique was never 100%, but I've been working on that. I've noticed my lats and triceps are getting a bit sore, like I'm now using different muscles groups. This is a good thing isn't it??
My name is Andrew and I am college swim coach. I am also a USAT Level I Coach.
I love working with triathletes to help them improve their skills in the water, particularly those without a swimming background, and without access to formal in-person coaching.
If you have questions about how to improve your skills in the water, please shoot them my way in this thread.
I'd be happy to help to the best of my ability.
The more information you provide about your context (years swimming, approximate swimming speed, etc), and the more specific your question is, the more effectively I'll be able to help you out.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Andrew
Hi Andrew, I am a newbie swimmer: 2 years of training now. My times are around 1:45/100m for threshold, my 100m pb is 90secs. I have been steadily improving. I am having trouble with my kick being wide and splaying, I’m not crossing over with my stroke so not sure what’s causing it. Been thinking that perhaps it’s to do with my rotation? Any tips on what to mainly focus on as an improving swimmer?
How is Max Edwards doing? Faster and faster?? David * Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law * Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
I'd like to have a simple and clear explanation of what the kick should FEEL like. I think I tend to lock my legs more than I should, causing my quads and calves to be "tense". I am working on relaxing the leg muscles and being more "free".
Also, my kick sucks. If I use the little board to work on kicking only it takes me about 45 seconds to go 25 yards, and my muscles are burning. I feel that isn't what it should feel like.
Lastly-how should my head be in the water? If I stand up straight (on land, walking as most humans should), is that the exact position I should have in the water? I feel like my head is slightly tilted up (kinda like in aero position on bike). When I attempt to lower it, I feel like I am dropping it too much.
Yes. I would say so. If you're shoulders and your biceps are feeling the most fatigue, you're doing the work with the wrong groups.
Lats are definitely where they work should be taking place. Those are the big, strong muscles that can handle the workload.
Triceps to a little bit lesser extent. However, you're good if it's triceps AND lats. If it was just triceps, I would think that you're trying to use arms a little too much.
Hi Andrew, I am a newbie swimmer: 2 years of training now. My times are around 1:45/100m for threshold, my 100m pb is 90secs. I have been steadily improving. I am having trouble with my kick being wide and splaying, I’m not crossing over with my stroke so not sure what’s causing it. Been thinking that perhaps it’s to do with my rotation? Any tips on what to mainly focus on as an improving swimmer?
Thanks!
Good question. That type of leg action is almost ALWAYS a symptom of some other issue. In almost every single case, if you're legs aren't doing what you want them to do, it's a SYMPTOM and not a CAUSE. And that cause is probably creating other problems as well.
It's a good though that your are crossing over. That would probably do it. If that's not the case, you are probably over-rotating in 1 of 2 ways.
1. You are stabbing the water when your recover, and really driving the hand into the water, either down, across your body (different from crossing over as you can still pull straight back from this position), or both. This will cause you to over-rotate, and the legs will splay as a result.
2. You are really rotating a lot to breathe. This can happen with some regularity, particularly in individuals that aren't super stable in the water.
Here's an exercise you can try. Go into the water and curl up in a ball. You'll float (everyone does). Just hang out there for 10 seconds or so. FEEL the support of your lungs holding you in the water. Now swim a 25 feeling the same support from your lungs. That's what it feels like to be balanced in the water. You need to maintain that sensation at ALL times, ESPECIALLY when you breathe.
The legs splaying is to combat a lack of stability. Stability comes from the lungs.
Let me know if that make sense and how that goes. If you can't figure out the exercise, I can send you a link to a video.
The short answer is if you can't swim 100 yards/meters in less than 1:20 (and your threshold speed is necessarily slower than that). Of course, this isn't a hard and fast rule and it depends on age.
If you can't achieve those speeds, your problem is a technical one, not a fitness one. All the fitness training in the world will only result in marginal improvement, whereas improving your skills can result in substantial improvements.
If you can swim marginally faster than that, I would focus on improving your skills and working learning how to sustain those skills under some stress (ie training).
If you can swim significantly faster than that, you can focus more on 'training' as you would with running or on the bike.
IMPORTANT- 'Working on skills' doesn't just mean doing drills. It means doing certain exercises that are going to make a BIG difference in your skills that will improve your speed AND taking what you've learned into regular swimming. If you just do 25s of typical drill work, that probably won't be real effective. You need to get a feel for what needs to change, and then you need to execute that while SWIMMING. Of course, if you're spending all your time at threshold, it's going to be hard to swim differently. Once you've made the change, have at it with threshold.
If you have more specific questions about what I wrote, fire them my way.
I'd like to have a simple and clear explanation of what the kick should FEEL like. I think I tend to lock my legs more than I should, causing my quads and calves to be "tense". I am working on relaxing the leg muscles and being more "free".
Also, my kick sucks. If I use the little board to work on kicking only it takes me about 45 seconds to go 25 yards, and my muscles are burning. I feel that isn't what it should feel like.
Lastly-how should my head be in the water? If I stand up straight (on land, walking as most humans should), is that the exact position I should have in the water? I feel like my head is slightly tilted up (kinda like in aero position on bike). When I attempt to lower it, I feel like I am dropping it too much.
Thanks for your help!
1. The kick should be light, almost a flick. I can give you some other ways to think about it, but I hesitate to do so because I don't think that's your actual problem. Read the rest of my response, and if you still want more on the kick, let me know and I'll provide it.
2. I wouldn't worry about how bad your kick is. Save your legs for race/training on land. You want to be able to stay balanced on the surface WITHOUT having to kick to keep your hips up (see below). This is faster and more efficient, and it will save your legs. If you're racing 200m or shorter in a pool, that's different. But you're not.
3. You basically want it like it should be on land. MOST swimmers, and triathletes in particular, need to press their head and chest into water to be in the right position. It's not just the position of the head. You have to actually PRESS into the water. That keeps their hips and takes the pressure off their legs. Whenever people actually get into a position that puts them in a good position, they ALWAYS say it feels like their head is underwater. It's not. It's right at the surface.
Perform the ball float exercise i referenced a couple posts earlier. I had someone do it over the weekend. He responded-
1. I feel like my head is underwater (it wasn't) 2. I don't have to kick for the first time in my life! (He was in his 50s)
If you're not sure, have someone film it with your phone. The back of your head will probably be right at the surface. If it's 6 inches beneath the surface, that's definitely too much.
Hope that helps.
Let me know how it goes, or if there is anything else I can help you with.
Yes. I would say so. If you're shoulders and your biceps are feeling the most fatigue, you're doing the work with the wrong groups.
Lats are definitely where they work should be taking place. Those are the big, strong muscles that can handle the workload.
Triceps to a little bit lesser extent. However, you're good if it's triceps AND lats. If it was just triceps, I would think that you're trying to use arms a little too much.
Sounds like you've made a positive change. Nice work!
On that note, I swam as a kid, was a breaststroker, gave up around 17. I'm usually near the front of the age group races I swim in, albeit not up with the leaders swimming sub 20 for 1500 or sub 50 for ironman. as a kid i could swim 2500m or so for a 30 minute test, but didn't really compete in long distance free. best times are around just over 20 for 1500 in a triathlon and 52 for ironman.
Since getting back into swimming after covid lockdown, I was swimming the slowest and the sorest I have felt. My shoulders always felt sore and fatigued and I felt like I was really 'short' in the water. In the last 2 swims, I focused on trying not to 'feel' my arms as I recover them over the water and keeping my hands 'soft'. i've been told in the past I lead with my biceps whilst doing free. Since focussing on trying not to feel my arms as I recover them, I've found I am not getting sore shoulders and not fatiguing anywhere near as quickly.
Is this the right correction to make for sore shoulders and arms doing free?
Hi Andrew, I am a newbie swimmer: 2 years of training now. My times are around 1:45/100m for threshold, my 100m pb is 90secs. I have been steadily improving. I am having trouble with my kick being wide and splaying, I’m not crossing over with my stroke so not sure what’s causing it. Been thinking that perhaps it’s to do with my rotation? Any tips on what to mainly focus on as an improving swimmer?
Thanks!
Good question. That type of leg action is almost ALWAYS a symptom of some other issue. In almost every single case, if you're legs aren't doing what you want them to do, it's a SYMPTOM and not a CAUSE. And that cause is probably creating other problems as well.
It's a good though that your are crossing over. That would probably do it. If that's not the case, you are probably over-rotating in 1 of 2 ways.
1. You are stabbing the water when your recover, and really driving the hand into the water, either down, across your body (different from crossing over as you can still pull straight back from this position), or both. This will cause you to over-rotate, and the legs will splay as a result.
2. You are really rotating a lot to breathe. This can happen with some regularity, particularly in individuals that aren't super stable in the water.
Here's an exercise you can try. Go into the water and curl up in a ball. You'll float (everyone does). Just hang out there for 10 seconds or so. FEEL the support of your lungs holding you in the water. Now swim a 25 feeling the same support from your lungs. That's what it feels like to be balanced in the water. You need to maintain that sensation at ALL times, ESPECIALLY when you breathe.
The legs splaying is to combat a lack of stability. Stability comes from the lungs.
Let me know if that make sense and how that goes. If you can't figure out the exercise, I can send you a link to a video.
Great, thanks. I treid in the other thread but didnt get a comment so I'll try here.
I'm a good swimmer for triathlete (27-28m for half, 57-58 for full AG50), but obviously far away from being a swimmer (also not the goal). I also think I'm quite a single speed swimmer, as mentioned full IM at 1.30/100m pace and my best 100m SCM with pool start is 1.12
I have few questions. I feel the difference between a good and bad day is relatively large and I really cant figure out where it comes from. So:
- Based on the videos below, what do you think is the first thing that might fall apart in that stroke - What is the first low hanging fruit to improve and how
On that note, I swam as a kid, was a breaststroker, gave up around 17. I'm usually near the front of the age group races I swim in, albeit not up with the leaders swimming sub 20 for 1500 or sub 50 for ironman. as a kid i could swim 2500m or so for a 30 minute test, but didn't really compete in long distance free. best times are around just over 20 for 1500 in a triathlon and 52 for ironman.
Since getting back into swimming after covid lockdown, I was swimming the slowest and the sorest I have felt. My shoulders always felt sore and fatigued and I felt like I was really 'short' in the water. In the last 2 swims, I focused on trying not to 'feel' my arms as I recover them over the water and keeping my hands 'soft'. i've been told in the past I lead with my biceps whilst doing free. Since focussing on trying not to feel my arms as I recover them, I've found I am not getting sore shoulders and not fatiguing anywhere near as quickly.
Is this the right correction to make for sore shoulders and arms doing free?
2500m for a T-30 is pretty good. Nice.
As the name implies, the 'recovery' is where certain muscles have the opportunity to recover. The less effort you can put into the recovery, the better. As you say, staying 'soft' is a create way conceptualize moving the arm without tension. If you don't 'feel your arms', you're probably staying relaxed and using less effort, which is a good thing. That will allow you to get some rest within each arms stroke. You don't want to do any work you don't need to do.
If you're not getting sore shoulders and not fatiguing nearly as much, you should definitely keep doing what you're doing. It's working, so don't mess with it.
As far as being 'short' in the water, I would recommend that anyone get consistent with counting your strokes whenever you're in a pool. It's a great indicator as to how efficient you are being relative to what you usually do. So if you usually take ~15 strokes per lap and all of a sudden you're taking 18, something has changed for the worse. If you were to feel like you're swimming short and you're still taking your normal 15 strokes, you'd know that the feeling of being short is something else you'd have to address.
I wouldn't necessarily try to change your stroke counts. Just like keeping track of your heart rate and speed are valuable in all aspects of training, when something changes unexpectedly, you can do something about.
Speed indicates your performance. Heart rate indicates the physical cost of the work. Stroke count indicates how well you're swimming relatively to normal.
Great, thanks. I treid in the other thread but didnt get a comment so I'll try here.
I'm a good swimmer for triathlete (27-28m for half, 57-58 for full AG50), but obviously far away from being a swimmer (also not the goal). I also think I'm quite a single speed swimmer, as mentioned full IM at 1.30/100m pace and my best 100m SCM with pool start is 1.12
I have few questions. I feel the difference between a good and bad day is relatively large and I really cant figure out where it comes from. So:
- Based on the videos below, what do you think is the first thing that might fall apart in that stroke - What is the first low hanging fruit to improve and how
I know videos are not optimal, but best I can do. Thanks a lot!
Here is my take based upon what I can see.
Overall, you look good. Body position looks good. You're level in the water and you're not fighting to stay in position. That's a big dea for most.
From what I can tell from this angle, the arm action underwater isn't obviously problematic. It's hard to tell what's really going on without a head-on shot.
Two potential issues I see-
The breath is a little late, slow, and it pulls you out of alignment. It's more noticeable on the faster swim, so my guess is that it tends to get worse when you get tired or swim harder. If you're having a bad day, you're probably going to swim harder:).
This causes problems because it will disrupt your alignment horizontally (head goes up=hips go down) and laterally (head swings to side the shoulders will go with the head and the hips go the other way). All of a sudden you're creating more drag. You can see there is a bit of a wiggle to the stroke.
In addition, when the breath happens like that, you'll notice the left arm drops pretty quickly and you're halfway through the stroke before the head gets back down into the water. That means the arm isn't going to be doing what it needs to do for much of the stroke. The arm does that to attempt to create stability that is lost when lifting the head (pressing head/chest into the water creates stability).
What may be happening is that when you're struggling, you pick up the tempo and this makes the breath worse and the technique starts to fall apart a bit.
I think the biggest opportunity is to fix the breathing. Put a paddle on the top of your head and swim with it. Don't let it come off when you breathe. Once you can do this slow, start speeding it up. That will help you learn how to keep the head more stable.
Another observation which is a little less straightforward. You may getting a little ahead of your rotation with your arms strokes. You swim with pretty high tempo (which is no problem), but you might be pulling a little early. It probably gets worse when Try this exercise and see if you can get the same connection when you swim regular freestyle. It's NOT about more rotation, just better timing. It may help.
However, breathing is probably a bigger issue AND easier to address.
Lastly, moving forward, start paying attention to your stroke counts. You don't need to change them, but see what happens when you have your good days versus your bad days.
My guess is that you are doing one of two things. You are picking up the stroke rate and taking extra strokes, causing you to slow down. OR you're really slowing your stroke rate down and keeping the stroke count the same. If the stroke counts are higher on the bad days, you're getting inefficient. If stroke counts are the same, you're tempo is dropping off for some reason.
Why do the bad days happen? My guess is that it's just fatigue which makes some small technical issues worse.. I can't really tell how old you are in the video. If you're older, you may just need more rest between harder training sessions. Not what anyone wants to hear, but it happens to us all:).
Hope that helps. Let me know if you have follow-up questions.
Thank you very much, very kind of you to take so much time to answer in such detail.
I was a bit concious of the slow/late breathing, and sometimes tried to do it with bit more tempo, but it seems to be something I need to focus on for it to happen.
The drill with paddle on the top of my head, does it really stay there while breathing? Having not tried, I would guess head turns too much for it stay?
3. You basically want it like it should be on land. MOST swimmers, and triathletes in particular, need to press their head and chest into water to be in the right position. It's not just the position of the head. You have to actually PRESS into the water. That keeps their hips and takes the pressure off their legs. Whenever people actually get into a position that puts them in a good position, they ALWAYS say it feels like their head is underwater. It's not. It's right at the surface.
I've never run into that bit of advice but I'm going to give that a go tomorrow when I'm in the pool. Anything else you can say about this for somebody trying it for the first time? I'm pretty sure this is a big issue with my own position.
Thank you very much, very kind of you to take so much time to answer in such detail.
I was a bit concious of the slow/late breathing, and sometimes tried to do it with bit more tempo, but it seems to be something I need to focus on for it to happen.
The drill with paddle on the top of my head, does it really stay there while breathing? Having not tried, I would guess head turns too much for it stay?
The breathing is a little slow and late, but the BIGGER problem is that you life the head and pull it to the side. THAT is what really disrupts your alignment.
It will really stay there, IF you breathe correctly:). It probably won't stay during turns, although I have seen some people pull that off. However, I wouldn't even worry about the turns.
Follow this progression-
1. Figure out how to do the drill at ANY speed (just 25s) 2. Figure out how to do the drill with increasing speed (just 25s). 3. Figure out how to do the drill FAST (just 25s) 4. Transition into more training where you go something like
3 rounds 2x25 Paddle cap freestyle with 10 seconds rest; STRONG effort 4x100 Threshold effort with 20 seconds rest; breathing the SAME as when you had the paddle on 50 EZ
This is just a sample set. Adjust the volume and speeds accordingly depending on how you train. You can use the same idea and do any type of training after the drill.
Once you can do this sort of training and still breathe really well, you've fixed the problem.
**For anyone else reading this, there is NOTHING special about this specific set. However, the CONCEPT of integrating skills into training is really important. Most people stop after step 1. YOU NEED TO PROGRESS TO STEP 4 IF WANT REAL TECNICAL CHANGE THAT ACTUALLY IMPROVES PERFORMANCE!!!*
I've never run into that bit of advice but I'm going to give that a go tomorrow when I'm in the pool. Anything else you can say about this for somebody trying it for the first time? I'm pretty sure this is a big issue with my own position.
Thanks for doing this!
Here's a video explaining the exercise in a little more detail.
In terms of what you want to feel, you'll feel SUPPORTED when it's done well. The ball exercise is useful for feeling the total support. The elevator exercise is useful for FINDING the support when you swim. As you go from high to low, you should pass through the sweet spot. If you go slow and stay patient, you should find it.
Alternate the two exercises until it clicks.
It's not necessarily a hard skill to learn, but it's pretty foreign to what people have experienced in the past. Stick with it even if it doesn't happen right away.
Some ideas that might help-
LEAN into the water with your body Try pressing the head, the chest, or both. When done well, you'll feel pressure on your face and upper body, and lightness in your lower body.
Everyone's a little bit different, and what you have to do can be different for different people.
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
1) Should I breathe to the left or to the right from your coaching perspective?
2) How often should I implement breathing to the wrong side?
3) What should be my technical focus based on the video?
Background: started swimming at 28/29 (2016/2017), Had a break due to injury November 2017-april 2018 and due to covid September 2020 - august 2021 (pool closed). Had a pb of 10x50m @ 1.00 averaging 45sec and 1.06-1.08-1.05 in my ironman swims until august 2019. Worked a year with a tri coach and was able to break 30sec for 50m (scm) and go 30.0 (LCM). I have always preferred breathing to the left but after the covid break it has started to feel good breathing to the right.
I feel that the recovery with my right arm gets somewhat tight when I breath to the left. And the breathing drill you prescribed to someone else probably applies to me as well
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
In trying to understand the muscle engagement, would this be similar to doing a shallow "plank" style effort on dry land, in which you slightly lift the legs off the ground? Would that be a good way to feel that muscle engagement (with the understanding that the water will aid in buoyancy)?
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
In trying to understand the muscle engagement, would this be similar to doing a shallow "plank" style effort on dry land, in which you slightly lift the legs off the ground? Would that be a good way to feel that muscle engagement (with the understanding that the water will aid in buoyancy)?
Exactly that. Lie on the ground on your stomach, stretch your arms in front of you ("superman"), and lift your straightened legs. It is hard on land, but easy in the water. Feel those muscles, as they are what you engage. You got it. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
I've never run into that bit of advice but I'm going to give that a go tomorrow when I'm in the pool. Anything else you can say about this for somebody trying it for the first time? I'm pretty sure this is a big issue with my own position.
Thanks for doing this!
Here's a video explaining the exercise in a little more detail.
In terms of what you want to feel, you'll feel SUPPORTED when it's done well. The ball exercise is useful for feeling the total support. The elevator exercise is useful for FINDING the support when you swim. As you go from high to low, you should pass through the sweet spot. If you go slow and stay patient, you should find it.
Alternate the two exercises until it clicks.
It's not necessarily a hard skill to learn, but it's pretty foreign to what people have experienced in the past. Stick with it even if it doesn't happen right away.
Some ideas that might help-
LEAN into the water with your body Try pressing the head, the chest, or both. When done well, you'll feel pressure on your face and upper body, and lightness in your lower body.
Everyone's a little bit different, and what you have to do can be different for different people.
Let me know how it goes and I can help you troubleshoot, if necessary. Hopefully, it's not:).
Tried the drills today and I’m 100% certain I was too shallow with my head and chest. Not sure how much faster my times got from this change, but I’m thinking at least 5s/100yd!! Thanks for articulating that nugget of info, it really helped me out.
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
First off, if you feel like this is helping you, I would caution you changing much.
My perspective-
I watched the video and the concepts of center of flotation/center of mass, why the legs sink, etc, is all spot on. However, you CAN influence the balance by pressing the chest and head. That's how you affect the situation. It requires much less effort and is much more effective than actively lifting the legs. If you watch one of the first underwater videos of some one swimming in the link, there head is high and their hips are low. Like a see-saw press the head, the hips come up, and the legs follow.
You may have a unique situation. The position you are describing (C-cup) is one where you are creating more drag than you need to. I am not sure exactly what you mean by the positions you can't get into. Clearly, you need to avoid pain and any way you can swim without pain is superior to one where you are in pain.
Have you tried rotating a little bit more? For those with should problems during the recovery, this can sometimes take the pressure off the shoulders, and you won't need to get your arms directly overhead.
If you absolutely cannot get into a straight positon and press the chest because of your shoulders, then what you are doing is probably making the best of a compromised situation. However, for any one else that is NOT in this situation, you are much better off leveraging your lungs than pulling up your legs. This particularly true if you plan on using your legs in a triathlon!
Pure anecdote- I was a pretty good swimmer (relatively speaking) and I have never ever though about consciously lifting my legs. I have never heard another swim coach mention it, and I have never had a swimmer mention it. If you press the chest appropriate, the legs come up automatically.
1) Should I breathe to the left or to the right from your coaching perspective?
2) How often should I implement breathing to the wrong side?
3) What should be my technical focus based on the video?
Background: started swimming at 28/29 (2016/2017), Had a break due to injury November 2017-april 2018 and due to covid September 2020 - august 2021 (pool closed). Had a pb of 10x50m @ 1.00 averaging 45sec and 1.06-1.08-1.05 in my ironman swims until august 2019. Worked a year with a tri coach and was able to break 30sec for 50m (scm) and go 30.0 (LCM). I have always preferred breathing to the left but after the covid break it has started to feel good breathing to the right.
I feel that the recovery with my right arm gets somewhat tight when I breath to the left. And the breathing drill you prescribed to someone else probably applies to me as well
1) I would breathe to the right. That rhythm looked a lot smoother, a lot more fluid, and a lot more natural. The breath timing was better.
2) I think it's useful to do occasionally. Maybe 10-20% (warm up/warm down counts toward this). Will it improve your performance breathing to both sides? Probably not. However, it MIGHT keep you a little bit healthier by getting range of motion through both sides of the neck. I would suggest you almost ALWAYS race breathing.
3) From THIS angle, I don't see anything particularly problematic. It looks like you're moving pretty well with each stroke, and as I said above, the rhythm is pretty good. You might be able to keep the head a little lower to get the hips up. However, I am not entirely sure because I can't be certain from this angle. I would give that a shot and see if it helps. (See 5 for more about what to do). If you haven't been doing so, keep track of your stroke counts AND your times in training. Try to be consistent with BOTH and bring both down over time. At your level, that can be just as effective as working on specific skills. Sooner or later, you'll start to figure out the little tricks to improve both, but only if you're paying attention to what they are.
4) When you breathe to the left, the rhythm of the stroke looks more forced, and that could explain the fatigue you are experiencing. The head is moving around a little bit more, and it's a little late. The Paddle Cap Drill should help a bit.
5) If you can legit go 30.0 LCM, you have enough skill and speed to be a good triathlon swimmer. That's pretty fast and most of your competitors will not have that kind of speed. That's VERY good considering you when you started swimming. At this point, it's more about training and learning how to maintain your speed. Continued skill work will help (it always will). Training will PROBABLY help more.
Let me know how that sounds, and if it makes sense based upon what you're experiencing.
Tried the drills today and I’m 100% certain I was too shallow with my head and chest. Not sure how much faster my times got from this change, but I’m thinking at least 5s/100yd!! Thanks for articulating that nugget of info, it really helped me out.
That's AWESOME. Simple changes like that can make a big difference. 5s/100yard is HUGE.
When you find the right problems to improve with technique, the boost in speed will always be faster and more dramatic than what you can achieve with training. The slower you are, the more this is true.
CONGRATS!
Now, make sure you consistently practice and train it so you can do it when you get tired:)
The 30.0 LCM wasn't legit (My friend started the clock when I jumped from the block, he didnt start me). And it was before the covid break. I can't get the same speed on my arms now (at least not yet) but will hopefully get there again with time. But yes, I was very satisfied with that since both my dolphin kicks and my starting skills off the blocks are terrible.
I always keep track of times but I rarely do a stroke count. I have a lot of technical noise in my head but will try to start counting. Will a tempo trainer be of any help to make sure I do not slow down/increase my stroke rate?
If I understand you correctly I will:
Breathe to the right all the time, except for 10-20% (part of warm ups and cool downs mostly), try the paddle drill (especially on my left) and see if that kind of breathing (i.e holding my head down) will help even when breathing on my right side. Focus will be on both training and technique but the former will probably yield the biggest result.
Your comment regarding maintaining speed is interesting. Definitely something I will need to consider as I have noted that my first length always is faster than the rest. My push off is probably better, which gives a higher starting speed. Hmm.
I will try to get some footage from underwater and the front too. This was really helpful. Thanks a lot.
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
First off, if you feel like this is helping you, I would caution you changing much.
My perspective-
I watched the video and the concepts of center of flotation/center of mass, why the legs sink, etc, is all spot on. However, you CAN influence the balance by pressing the chest and head. That's how you affect the situation. It requires much less effort and is much more effective than actively lifting the legs. If you watch one of the first underwater videos of some one swimming in the link, there head is high and their hips are low. Like a see-saw press the head, the hips come up, and the legs follow.
You may have a unique situation. The position you are describing (C-cup) is one where you are creating more drag than you need to. I am not sure exactly what you mean by the positions you can't get into. Clearly, you need to avoid pain and any way you can swim without pain is superior to one where you are in pain.
Have you tried rotating a little bit more? For those with should problems during the recovery, this can sometimes take the pressure off the shoulders, and you won't need to get your arms directly overhead.
If you absolutely cannot get into a straight positon and press the chest because of your shoulders, then what you are doing is probably making the best of a compromised situation. However, for any one else that is NOT in this situation, you are much better off leveraging your lungs than pulling up your legs. This particularly true if you plan on using your legs in a triathlon!
Pure anecdote- I was a pretty good swimmer (relatively speaking) and I have never ever though about consciously lifting my legs. I have never heard another swim coach mention it, and I have never had a swimmer mention it. If you press the chest appropriate, the legs come up automatically.
Let me know what you think about that, and how it relates to your specific situation.
The effort to keep my body horizontal by using these muscles is minuscule: I can do it all day in the pool.
I submit (and I've argued this here many times) that physics says that if you drop your head without any external force being applied, your legs will also drop (conservation of angular momentum). If by dropping your head your legs rose, you'd end up spinning in a circle head-over-heels. That doesn't happen, right? If you raise your head *without pushing down on the water to do so* your legs will also rise (again, conservation of angular momentum). You raise your head by using your muscles, not by pushing down on the water.
My situation is likely unique. If I stand with my back to a wall and press my heels, butt, and shoulders to the wall and raise my arms overhead, my hands are not within a foot of the wall. Thus, if I want my arms to be streamlined in the water in this position, I need to drop my hips enough to effect a horizontal position with my arms. Using my back/hip/leg muscles to pull my legs up makes this happen.
When you "press the chest," what exactly are you "pressing" against? What muscles are you using to do this, and in what way?
(by the way, I think that your guidance in this thread is excellent!) ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
The short answer is if you can't swim 100 yards/meters in less than 1:20 (and your threshold speed is necessarily slower than that). Of course, this isn't a hard and fast rule and it depends on age.
If you can't achieve those speeds, your problem is a technical one, not a fitness one. All the fitness training in the world will only result in marginal improvement, whereas improving your skills can result in substantial improvements.
This is such an interesting statement. I don't know if I should be extremely discouraged, or extremely hopeful.
I've been swimming for about 6 months now, and I still can't swim even a 100 under 1:20, even when I feel like I'm giving a max effort. I've recently been getting better at 8-10x100 @ 1:50 coming in on 1:35-1:40 with masters swim, but that's essentially a max effort by the end, and I'm slowing down a bit, too (1:40-1:45 by last reps).
I've been trying to move more powerfully through the pull and be more streamlined in the recovery phase with a bit more of a glide, but I'm at a loss as to how I could take my current fitness and go 15 secs/100 faster.
Is it simply a matter of time and work? I've raced bikes for 15 years, so of course someone riding for a year asking how they can put out similar power typically results in a response of doing many more miles and years of training, but that's aerobically based and not really that technique-dominated.
The idea that I'm that draggy in the water makes me think of sitting bolt upright on a bike with a parachute; something I'd never want to knowingly do in training or racing.
Wow, the head thing helped a lot. Thanks man! I am not wobbling up and down as much and it felt like there was no resistance at all compared to what I am used to. 1.24/100m with an easy 2-beat felt really good and 1.14/100m with a 4-beat was taxing, but not like it normally is. Very curious to see how long it will take to get used to breathing like that.
Fun fact: I stood bent in front of a mirror (I am quite a slow learner) for almost 20 minutes (yes, I had to take breaks) before I understood how to move the body to breathe without lifting my head. Definitely worth it!
Also: how long should you stay on the back (after having pushed off the wall) until you put one foot behind the other and turn over on your belly? I have been thinking about your statement regarding maintaining speed and I think my main problem is that I dont generate enough speed out from each turn.
The short answer is if you can't swim 100 yards/meters in less than 1:20 (and your threshold speed is necessarily slower than that). Of course, this isn't a hard and fast rule and it depends on age.
If you can't achieve those speeds, your problem is a technical one, not a fitness one. All the fitness training in the world will only result in marginal improvement, whereas improving your skills can result in substantial improvements.
This is such an interesting statement. I don't know if I should be extremely discouraged, or extremely hopeful.
I've been swimming for about 6 months now, and I still can't swim even a 100 under 1:20, even when I feel like I'm giving a max effort. I've recently been getting better at 8-10x100 @ 1:50 coming in on 1:35-1:40 with masters swim, but that's essentially a max effort by the end, and I'm slowing down a bit, too (1:40-1:45 by last reps).
I've been trying to move more powerfully through the pull and be more streamlined in the recovery phase with a bit more of a glide, but I'm at a loss as to how I could take my current fitness and go 15 secs/100 faster.
Is it simply a matter of time and work? I've raced bikes for 15 years, so of course someone riding for a year asking how they can put out similar power typically results in a response of doing many more miles and years of training, but that's aerobically based and not really that technique-dominated.
The idea that I'm that draggy in the water makes me think of sitting bolt upright on a bike with a parachute; something I'd never want to knowingly do in training or racing.
I'd take that 1:20 for 100 as 'all technique' with a massive grain of salt.
If it really were just all technique, 80 year olds with no arthritis limiters would still be dominating masters swims everywhere, as 1:20/100 over distance usually puts you in the front groups. Obviously, this is not the case.
These kind of statements are common from people with a lot of natural gifts. If you jumped in the pool, and were swimming 1:20s pretty much in a few months, of course you'd think everyone could do it. Similarly, there are more than a few kids who start x-country running, and start dropping sub 16:30 5ks in less than a year - for them, they would say that anything slower than 20:00/5k pace is a joke and you should probably quit running altogether. In swimming, it's has the extra dimension of being able to blame both technique and fitness for not being fast, but technique gets given an outsized role by these fast swimmers.
Here's another perspective if it really was ALL technique. Find any of these effortless 1:20/100 all day type swimmers. Make them use terrible technique on purpose in some way to mess up their form. Like swim with one arm literally wrapped around their neck the entire time. Or swim doggy style full dropped elbows. Or put a full dress on them to make megadrag. They will STILL swim faster than 75-90% of all triathletes, and likely faster than 1:35/100. For sure, they will NOT be doing 2:00/100 like a beginner. The fitness component in swimming is absolutely huge, and for a non elite AG triathlete with wetsuits in OWS, I could see how one could argue it might be more important than technique after a beginner level.
The 30.0 LCM wasn't legit (My friend started the clock when I jumped from the block, he didnt start me). And it was before the covid break. I can't get the same speed on my arms now (at least not yet) but will hopefully get there again with time. But yes, I was very satisfied with that since both my dolphin kicks and my starting skills off the blocks are terrible.
I always keep track of times but I rarely do a stroke count. I have a lot of technical noise in my head but will try to start counting. Will a tempo trainer be of any help to make sure I do not slow down/increase my stroke rate?
If I understand you correctly I will:
Breathe to the right all the time, except for 10-20% (part of warm ups and cool downs mostly), try the paddle drill (especially on my left) and see if that kind of breathing (i.e holding my head down) will help even when breathing on my right side. Focus will be on both training and technique but the former will probably yield the biggest result.
Your comment regarding maintaining speed is interesting. Definitely something I will need to consider as I have noted that my first length always is faster than the rest. My push off is probably better, which gives a higher starting speed. Hmm.
I will try to get some footage from underwater and the front too. This was really helpful. Thanks a lot.
With the speed, if you've reached that level once, you'll be able to do it again.
Technical noise- pick ONE THING and work on it. Ignore EVERYTHING else. You can shift your focus with a practice session, but one thing at a time. Don't worry about the stroke count, just pay attention to your times as well (which you're probably already doing). If your times are staying pretty steady, the stroke rate is fine. If your times get a lot slower, then the stroke rate did go down. You can always tell what's happening with stroke count AND time. If those are both where you want them, then stroke rate is fine.
You have understood me correctly!
What I meant by maintaining speed is that you're top speed (~30s LCM) is much better than other swimmers that are swimming much faster Ironman times than you are. So SPEED is not your problem, but ENDURANCE if you want to improve your Ironman swim times. Does that make senses
I'm going to quote line by line in BOLD to answer your questions
The effort to keep my body horizontal by using these muscles is minuscule: I can do it all day in the pool.
If you feel like you are having success, that is great. My only point is that this is not the strategy that the best swimmers are using. While it may be an effective strategy for you at your current level of performance, it may be preventing you from achieving higher levels of performance.
I submit (and I've argued this here many times) that physics says that if you drop your head without any external force being applied, your legs will also drop (conservation of angular momentum). If by dropping your head your legs rose, you'd end up spinning in a circle head-over-heels. That doesn't happen, right?
It doesn't happen because when you push down with the head the lungs push BACK. They are buoyant and don't want to be submerged. The more you push the more they push back.
If you raise your head *without pushing down on the water to do so* your legs will also rise (again, conservation of angular momentum). You raise your head by using your muscles, not by pushing down on the water.
You highlighted the key caveat that I have underlined. The problem is that you can't do this. If one side of the seesaw goes up (the head) the other will go down (the hips and legs). You can't prevent it. You can compensate to some degree by arching the back. This comes at a cost as you are creating a poorly streamlined vessel.
My situation is likely unique. If I stand with my back to a wall and press my heels, butt, and shoulders to the wall and raise my arms overhead, my hands are not within a foot of the wall. Thus, if I want my arms to be streamlined in the water in this position, I need to drop my hips enough to effect a horizontal position with my arms. Using my back/hip/leg muscles to pull my legs up makes this happen.
My point is that while this strategy may 'work' for a given situation, it is not an optimal one, and I would caution others from implementing it unless they HAVE to. You may be one of those people. I don't feel that it is common.
It's hard to give recommendations without seeing it, but you might be better off not trying to keep the arms level at the surface. Let them drop a bit. That slight loss in propulsion might be worth the improved alignment in the water.
When you "press the chest," what exactly are you "pressing" against? What muscles are you using to do this, and in what way?
You are pressing against your lungs, which are buoyant and do not want to be submerged. Hold a kick board underwater. Push it down further. It resist you. That's what you are doing.
As far as leaning, face a wall then take a couple half steps back. Then lean into the wall. You should feel like you'd fall over if the wall disappeared. You're going to create that feeling into the buoyancy of the lungs.
You need to FEEL it. Try this exercise to feel the support of your lungs. Then practice 'leaning into the buoyancy'. It's not a muscular action. Give it a shot and let me know how it goes.
(by the way, I think that your guidance in this thread is excellent!)
Thank you!
This is a great example of how to find individual strategies for effective movement when the situation isn't perfect, and how to accommodate general principles to specific situations.
This is such an interesting statement. I don't know if I should be extremely discouraged, or extremely hopeful.
I've been swimming for about 6 months now, and I still can't swim even a 100 under 1:20, even when I feel like I'm giving a max effort. I've recently been getting better at 8-10x100 @ 1:50 coming in on 1:35-1:40 with masters swim, but that's essentially a max effort by the end, and I'm slowing down a bit, too (1:40-1:45 by last reps).
I've been trying to move more powerfully through the pull and be more streamlined in the recovery phase with a bit more of a glide, but I'm at a loss as to how I could take my current fitness and go 15 secs/100 faster.
Is it simply a matter of time and work? I've raced bikes for 15 years, so of course someone riding for a year asking how they can put out similar power typically results in a response of doing many more miles and years of training, but that's aerobically based and not really that technique-dominated.
The idea that I'm that draggy in the water makes me think of sitting bolt upright on a bike with a parachute; something I'd never want to knowingly do in training or racing.
1. You should be hopeful. You can improve skills more than you can improve your physiology. Of course, it will require a change in approach and that can be challenging.
2. If you have only been swimming 6 months, those are solid speeds. There are individuals swimming much longer that can't do that. Stay focused on your progress as much as where you want to be.
3. Even if you're focused on skills, you still have to accumulate a lot of swimming. Physical factors are still at play. AND just like getting good at piano, even if you KNOW what to do, it still takes a lot of practice to actually get better at DOING it.
Just like you can't watch a video on YouTube and instantly play an instrument better, you can't do it in the pool. Yet everyone seems to think it's possible. You still have to work at it, even if you know what to do.
4. The bike analogy is perfect. The VAST majority of novice swimmers (triathlon or otherwise) are swimming like they are riding a bike while sitting up with a parachute on. The skill is learning how to take the parachute off!
5. So yes, it IS a matter of time and work, BUT that work needs to ruthlessly focused on improving the skills that help you take off the parachute. Even if you are working on the right skills with the right exercises in the right way, it will still take TIME and WORK. There are better ways of improving, but there are no real short cuts.
Skills are critical. At the same time, the way everyone thinks skills are acquired is wrong (watch a YouTube+do a couple drills = swim like a god). Skill development is a lot of WORK
Wow, the head thing helped a lot. Thanks man! I am not wobbling up and down as much and it felt like there was no resistance at all compared to what I am used to. 1.24/100m with an easy 2-beat felt really good and 1.14/100m with a 4-beat was taxing, but not like it normally is. Very curious to see how long it will take to get used to breathing like that.
Fun fact: I stood bent in front of a mirror (I am quite a slow learner) for almost 20 minutes (yes, I had to take breaks) before I understood how to move the body to breathe without lifting my head. Definitely worth it!
Also: how long should you stay on the back (after having pushed off the wall) until you put one foot behind the other and turn over on your belly? I have been thinking about your statement regarding maintaining speed and I think my main problem is that I dont generate enough speed out from each turn.
Glad it was worth it. I would try the paddle cap freestyle drill to make sure you're REALLY not moving your head. It will help you adjust and get used to it.
As for the turns, I would just get onto your stomach as fast as possible. I wouldn't worry about it unless you are aiming to be competitive in a pool.
I was referencing your ability to maintain speed in open water based upon your IM times. There are no walls out there:).
I'd take that 1:20 for 100 as 'all technique' with a massive grain of salt.
If it really were just all technique, 80 year olds with no arthritis limiters would still be dominating masters swims everywhere, as 1:20/100 over distance usually puts you in the front groups. Obviously, this is not the case.
These kind of statements are common from people with a lot of natural gifts. If you jumped in the pool, and were swimming 1:20s pretty much in a few months, of course you'd think everyone could do it. Similarly, there are more than a few kids who start x-country running, and start dropping sub 16:30 5ks in less than a year - for them, they would say that anything slower than 20:00/5k pace is a joke and you should probably quit running altogether. In swimming, it's has the extra dimension of being able to blame both technique and fitness for not being fast, but technique gets given an outsized role by these fast swimmers.
Here's another perspective if it really was ALL technique. Find any of these effortless 1:20/100 all day type swimmers. Make them use terrible technique on purpose in some way to mess up their form. Like swim with one arm literally wrapped around their neck the entire time. Or swim doggy style full dropped elbows. Or put a full dress on them to make megadrag. They will STILL swim faster than 75-90% of all triathletes, and likely faster than 1:35/100. For sure, they will NOT be doing 2:00/100 like a beginner. The fitness component in swimming is absolutely huge, and for a non elite AG triathlete with wetsuits in OWS, I could see how one could argue it might be more important than technique after a beginner level.
First of all, my guess is that we are much closely aligned in philosophy than either of our posts would imply.
Second, my comments are based upon watching people of all abilities swim every day for the past 15 years, not my own personal experience.
To be clear, improving technique is NOT 10x25 drill. Improving technique is NOT put your hand 'right here' and you magically drop 15 seconds. If someone takes this approach, they will NOT improve.
Improving technical skill requires a systematic approach to developing skill that requires a lot of accumulated time in the water. You need to swim A LOT. And you need to do so with a focus on skill development. If you are swimming a lot in a focused manner, your fitness WILL IMPROVE as well.
Fitness is obviously important. However, just like you can improve fitness significantly with lower intensity cycling and running, you can do so in the pool. If you are doing skill development right in the water, this is the same type of work. Part of skill development is testing your skills at higher speeds and for longer durations. Wouldn't that develop fitness?
The problem is that the vast majority of novice swimmers, triathletes or otherwise, simply hop in and work hard with ZERO attention to their skill. This will work for a while, then they will plateau FAR sooner than their CURRENT fitness levels would indicate they are capable of performing.
I will exaggerate your example. If you took a former competitive college swimmer, waited until they were 50 and sedentary, added all of the constraints you mentioned, they would STILL beat the shit out of 90% of triathletes. I have seen fat, older swimmers, who clearly have not swum in decades swim pretty fast. Why? Not because they are fit (they're old and overweight), but because they have a fundamental understanding of how to move through water. The vast majority of triathletes never bother to learn this. They just start swimming as hard as they can, just like on land.
You wrote 'I could see how one could argue [fitness] might be more important than technique after a beginner level.' I agree 100% and that is exactly what I told AS88 in this thread. He needs to improve his endurance. His skills and speed are more than sufficient. The problem is that the vast majority are at a beginner level.
Please let me know if you take issue with anything I have written. This is an important topic.
If you raise your head *without pushing down on the water to do so* your legs will also rise (again, conservation of angular momentum). You raise your head by using your muscles, not by pushing down on the water.
You highlighted the key caveat that I have underlined. The problem is that you can't do this. If one side of the seesaw goes up (the head) the other will go down (the hips and legs). You can't prevent it. You can compensate to some degree by arching the back. This comes at a cost as you are creating a poorly streamlined vessel.
I'll just respond to this, as I've mucked up your thread enough.
If an astronaut is in a weightless environment and he pushes his head towards his back, his legs will go towards his back, too (his back will become more and more arched). That's the extreme example of what happens in the pool if you push your head up by using your back/hip/leg muscles: your legs go up, as well. Your see-saw analogy doesn't work here, as neither the swimmer nor the astronaut are moving around a *fixed* pivot point. The buoyancy of your lungs doesn't change the physics: it can change the depth of your body in the water or *maybe* the angle of your body, but the physics say that your legs must go towards your head. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
Actually, those sedentary ex-D1 swimmers will NOT be impressive - until they train enough to get enough fitness and feel back.
I've seen it myself - two ex D1 swimmers totally out of the pool for 15 years, no other sports, I asked them to swim during a casual pool party where I met them, and they were barely breaking 1:50/100 because they were so out of swim form. I was actually shocked, because I expected them to at least swim as fast as an average triathlete, but nope.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they would have gotten very fast on just a little training in the pool, and probably beat me pretty badly after that, but I'd also argue that these same D1 swimmers were making these sort of advancements early in age. These guys would NEVER have struggled to get faster than the typical triathlete at 1:40-1:50 pace, even as a 7 year old. They just have the natural ability to respond quickly to swim training. There are people with the same tendencies in cycling and running - but in running in particular, the joint and weight impact takes so much more of a toll, whereas in swimming that's a total non issue.
I can def point to ex-sedentary D1 runners who after 15+years can't even run a 9 minute mile for a single mile. But then they got motivated, trained for a 5k, then 10k, and in less than 6 months, they were running sub 20 5ks easily, and after a year, running 1:20 HMs at age 50+ no less. I definitely would NOT point to their awesome running technique for that ability - but I'd 100% put it on their favorable genetics to respond well to run training.
Again, I'm still not disagreeing how important technique is for swimming, and the hard reality that it is a big limiter in most triathletes. But I def would readily argue that given how little triathletes swim, lack of fitness is as much, and likely more of a limiter. Now if you're swimming 25k/wk on a hardcore masters swim and still finishing only 50% AG in your triathlon races - yeah, you got a major technique limiter. But that pretty much never happens.
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
The whole back and forth on this has me completely befuddled. The video indicates that feet sink because the center of mass is closer to the feet than the center of flotation. Let's say one is in the water with a straight body (i.e., arms overhead, and arms and legs straight and together with arms/hands/head/neck/spine/legs/feet all in the same plane) but the plane of the body is not horizontal (because of the center of mass/flotation thing). How would the center of mass of the body be moved headward or the center of flotation be moved legward by contracting muscles that, if unopposed would raise the legs above the plain of the rest of the body. (I say unopposed because the video does not show the person in a bowed shape with feet above the plane of the rest of the body -- but even if the bowed shape is the intent, it doesn't seem there would be a balancing of flotation and mass unless the person is a Cirque du Soleil acrobat, but in that case good luck swimming like that.)
Also, I think the comments regarding preservation of angular momentum are misplaced. We don't care if we need to spend a little energy to get horizontal (e.g., at the beginning of a tri with a deep water start, we wouldn't sit there after the cannon goes off and try to do the magic floaty thing and wait until we are horizontal before we start swimming). The idea of the video, I think, is to get the centers of balance and mass to occupy the same point so we do not need to spend any energy to stay horizontal.
Anyway, I admit I don't understand what is happening with the magic floaty thing, but I don't think it matters. If indeed the centers of mass and flotation are merging, activating the same muscles while swimming won't do the same trick because when we swim we no longer keep both arms extended overhead -- so our center of mass is further back and thus not merged with floatation.
Now for the "press your chest." I agree with you when you ask what are you pushing against to make your chest go down. I don't think the human body has a set of muscles to press your chest down in the water that wouldn't also involve pressing your feet down. But I don't think the "press your chest" advice is necessarily wrong. I think its allegorical. It might be more literal to say "keep your chest down." The coach doesn't want to say "keep you head down" because that might induce the swimmers to get their head below alignment with the body. So how would swimmers keep their chest down? -- By doing that "feel for the water" thing. If one's chest is higher than mere flotation would have it, there must be a vertical force getting it there. It could be that the stroke has a vertical force component so the swimmer (maybe without knowing it) starts pulling more horizontally. Maybe there is a little kick action that gets the feet up so the plane of the body is not generating lift. But in any case, I think I agree with you that the swimmer is not literally pressing the chest down.
Andrew - While he is indeed an AOS, you should know that "klehner" is no beginner. He started swimming at age 26 and by age 29 he was going 51 for the 100 scy. His stroke is all pull with a high turnover rate and very little kick. Thus the stuff you guys are debating is pretty much academic in his case as he doesn't really need any help to go fast. Just thought you should know his background. :) "Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
The short answer is if you can't swim 100 yards/meters in less than 1:20 (and your threshold speed is necessarily slower than that). Of course, this isn't a hard and fast rule and it depends on age.
If you can't achieve those speeds, your problem is a technical one, not a fitness one. All the fitness training in the world will only result in marginal improvement, whereas improving your skills can result in substantial improvements.
This is such an interesting statement. I don't know if I should be extremely discouraged, or extremely hopeful.
I've been swimming for about 6 months now, and I still can't swim even a 100 under 1:20, even when I feel like I'm giving a max effort. I've recently been getting better at 8-10x100 @ 1:50 coming in on 1:35-1:40 with masters swim, but that's essentially a max effort by the end, and I'm slowing down a bit, too (1:40-1:45 by last reps).
I've been trying to move more powerfully through the pull and be more streamlined in the recovery phase with a bit more of a glide, but I'm at a loss as to how I could take my current fitness and go 15 secs/100 faster.
Is it simply a matter of time and work? I've raced bikes for 15 years, so of course someone riding for a year asking how they can put out similar power typically results in a response of doing many more miles and years of training, but that's aerobically based and not really that technique-dominated.
The idea that I'm that draggy in the water makes me think of sitting bolt upright on a bike with a parachute; something I'd never want to knowingly do in training or racing.
I'd take that 1:20 for 100 as 'all technique' with a massive grain of salt.
If it really were just all technique, 80 year olds with no arthritis limiters would still be dominating masters swims everywhere, as 1:20/100 over distance usually puts you in the front groups. Obviously, this is not the case.
These kind of statements are common from people with a lot of natural gifts. If you jumped in the pool, and were swimming 1:20s pretty much in a few months, of course you'd think everyone could do it. Similarly, there are more than a few kids who start x-country running, and start dropping sub 16:30 5ks in less than a year - for them, they would say that anything slower than 20:00/5k pace is a joke and you should probably quit running altogether. In swimming, it's has the extra dimension of being able to blame both technique and fitness for not being fast, but technique gets given an outsized role by these fast swimmers.
Here's another perspective if it really was ALL technique. Find any of these effortless 1:20/100 all day type swimmers. Make them use terrible technique on purpose in some way to mess up their form. Like swim with one arm literally wrapped around their neck the entire time. Or swim doggy style full dropped elbows. Or put a full dress on them to make megadrag. They will STILL swim faster than 75-90% of all triathletes, and likely faster than 1:35/100. For sure, they will NOT be doing 2:00/100 like a beginner. The fitness component in swimming is absolutely huge, and for a non elite AG triathlete with wetsuits in OWS, I could see how one could argue it might be more important than technique after a beginner level.
You are missing the point. The major component in swimming is reducing drag. The major component in running is p/w. Have you never met "fat swimmer guy" who hasnt been to a pool, nor worked out, for 20 years. but still swims laps areound you? Sure, there is some strength required to move properly in the water, but going sub 1.20scy once doesnt require any fitness. Doing series like 10x100 is a different story but that wasnt what MasteringFlow claimed.
Just recently had a shoulder op to repair a tear, remove cysts and move the bicep tendon so swimming "normally" is out for me for a while.
I plan to start heading to the pool to work on my kicking and maybe some one arm drills. What type of session would give me the best bang for my buck, so to speak? Any recommendations on drills/distances etc.
Thanks in advance if you have time to answer this, since it's not strictly technique :)
Edited to say: my kicking has always been diabolical, or at least non-existent, so I am looking at this as an opportunity to fix a longstanding weakness. Also, my injured arm was my "stronger" arm, I always felt my left arm was under powered and often contributed less to my overall stroke, so again a chance to iron out any issues with that arm before I swim properly and begin the catch up to a full stroke.
I'll just respond to this, as I've mucked up your thread enough.
If an astronaut is in a weightless environment and he pushes his head towards his back, his legs will go towards his back, too (his back will become more and more arched). That's the extreme example of what happens in the pool if you push your head up by using your back/hip/leg muscles: your legs go up, as well. Your see-saw analogy doesn't work here, as neither the swimmer nor the astronaut are moving around a *fixed* pivot point. The buoyancy of your lungs doesn't change the physics: it can change the depth of your body in the water or *maybe* the angle of your body, but the physics say that your legs must go towards your head.
No worries. It is a good discussion.
I agree that if you life the AND arch the back, the legs will come up. My concern is that this comes at the expense of good alignment through the spine, and that this position will create drag. There are likely swimmers that can do this while minimizing the impact of increase drag due their anatomy. It appears that you can do so successfully. As noted by others, you are swimming plenty fast using this strategy. Like I said earlier, you shouldn't change anything you've had success with, and clearly you are having success.
I prefer to teach a different strategy because I feel that it is less likely have negative impacts, and I feel that it is easier to teach.
Actually, those sedentary ex-D1 swimmers will NOT be impressive - until they train enough to get enough fitness and feel back.
I see it every year at alumni swim meets. They come back swim fast relative to what anyone else can do. Not 1-2 people. All of them. Apparently we have had different experiences, which is fine.
These are my basic premises-
1. Fitness and skill are BOTH required if you want to improve significantly. 2. If you swim enough to improve your skills, your fitness will improve. The reverse is not necessarily true. 3. EVERY triathlete understands the importance of fitness. The importance of skill (in terms of what people actually DO rather than say) is much less appreciated. 4. A focus on skill development will improve both fitness and technique. A focus on fitness will likely only improve fitness.
You are free to believe differently.
Again, I'm still not disagreeing how important technique is for swimming, and the hard reality that it is a big limiter in most triathletes. But I def would readily argue that given how little triathletes swim, lack of fitness is as much, and likely more of a limiter. Now if you're swimming 25k/wk on a hardcore masters swim and still finishing only 50% AG in your triathlon races - yeah, you got a major technique limiter. But that pretty much never happens.[/quote]http://www.masteringflow.info http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today
Andrew - While he is indeed an AOS, you should know that "klehner" is no beginner. He started swimming at age 26 and by age 29 he was going 51 for the 100 scy. His stroke is all pull with a high turnover rate and very little kick. Thus the stuff you guys are debating is pretty much academic in his case as he doesn't really need any help to go fast. Just thought you should know his background. :)
The whole back and forth on this has me completely befuddled. The video indicates that feet sink because the center of mass is closer to the feet than the center of flotation. Let's say one is in the water with a straight body (i.e., arms overhead, and arms and legs straight and together with arms/hands/head/neck/spine/legs/feet all in the same plane) but the plane of the body is not horizontal (because of the center of mass/flotation thing). How would the center of mass of the body be moved headward or the center of flotation be moved legward by contracting muscles that, if unopposed would raise the legs above the plain of the rest of the body. (I say unopposed because the video does not show the person in a bowed shape with feet above the plane of the rest of the body -- but even if the bowed shape is the intent, it doesn't seem there would be a balancing of flotation and mass unless the person is a Cirque du Soleil acrobat, but in that case good luck swimming like that.)
Also, I think the comments regarding preservation of angular momentum are misplaced. We don't care if we need to spend a little energy to get horizontal (e.g., at the beginning of a tri with a deep water start, we wouldn't sit there after the cannon goes off and try to do the magic floaty thing and wait until we are horizontal before we start swimming). The idea of the video, I think, is to get the centers of balance and mass to occupy the same point so we do not need to spend any energy to stay horizontal.
Anyway, I admit I don't understand what is happening with the magic floaty thing, but I don't think it matters. If indeed the centers of mass and flotation are merging, activating the same muscles while swimming won't do the same trick because when we swim we no longer keep both arms extended overhead -- so our center of mass is further back and thus not merged with floatation.
Now for the "press your chest." I agree with you when you ask what are you pushing against to make your chest go down. I don't think the human body has a set of muscles to press your chest down in the water that wouldn't also involve pressing your feet down. But I don't think the "press your chest" advice is necessarily wrong. I think its allegorical. It might be more literal to say "keep your chest down." The coach doesn't want to say "keep you head down" because that might induce the swimmers to get their head below alignment with the body. So how would swimmers keep their chest down? -- By doing that "feel for the water" thing. If one's chest is higher than mere flotation would have it, there must be a vertical force getting it there. It could be that the stroke has a vertical force component so the swimmer (maybe without knowing it) starts pulling more horizontally. Maybe there is a little kick action that gets the feet up so the plane of the body is not generating lift. But in any case, I think I agree with you that the swimmer is not literally pressing the chest down.
Rant over -- carry on.
Don't worry about the explanations. Forget about all of it. They aren't what matters. What matter is what allows you to improve.
Do this-
Try to implement what the video suggested. Put it into practice and see what happens. Then try the exercises/approaches I suggested. Put it into practice and see what happens.
In both cases, what happens?
Is it easier compared to 'normal'? Is it faster at all? Do you take less strokes? Does it feel like you can swim longer with less fatigue? Can you sustain one longer than the other? ETC.
I don't say any of this with the expectation of any outcome. I don't know what will happen, and neither do you.
With all of this stuff, you have to try it, see how it goes, and then make a decision as to what is best for you, regardless of the arguments that were made.
This same concept applies to ANY advice you are considering. At some point we have to do it and see what happens. What happens is what matters, not the rationale.
You are missing the point. The major component in swimming is reducing drag. The major component in running is p/w. Have you never met "fat swimmer guy" who hasnt been to a pool, nor worked out, for 20 years. but still swims laps areound you? Sure, there is some strength required to move properly in the water, but going sub 1.20scy once doesnt require any fitness. Doing series like 10x100 is a different story but that wasnt what MasteringFlow claimed.
Exactly. Once you have a reasonable level of speed and skill, you will absolutely need to train if you hope to sustain that speed for even the shortest of triathlon events.
Step #1 Get your skills and basic speed (which comes from skill) up to a minimum standard (you can still 'train' in this stage) Step #2 Now it's time to develop the fitness to hold and maintain your speed and skills for extended periods of time (i.e. racing!)
You are missing the point. The major component in swimming is reducing drag. The major component in running is p/w. Have you never met "fat swimmer guy" who hasnt been to a pool, nor worked out, for 20 years. but still swims laps areound you? Sure, there is some strength required to move properly in the water, but going sub 1.20scy once doesnt require any fitness. Doing series like 10x100 is a different story but that wasnt what MasteringFlow claimed.
Nope. I literally have NEVER met 'fat Mr. never trained guy.' NEVER.
Now I've def met fat (or fattish) fast guy/gals in the water. Or gal. More than several, actually. When I was swimming at local pools and YMCAs, outside of masters, it wasn't common (rare actually) to see swimmers like this, so I did ask a few what they did for swimming.
Here are some of the answers I got:
- 60-120 minutes per day of swimming, for the last 20+ years - Years of D1 swimming 'back in the day', actively coaching several highly competitive youth squads now, coaching a masters group of adults, AND training enough to race masters and train with ex-collegiate swimmers in another masters group - Just left collegiate swimming 4 years ago (ok she def wasn't fat, but you get my point) - Recent open water swim champion (I don't know what race/distance/etc.)
Zero of them were "huh - I literally haven't swam more than trivially in the past year." ALL of them were serious, diehard swimmers actively. NONE of them were out-of-shape with regards to swimming, even if they were carrying extra weight. It's just that in swimming, you don't have a weight penalty so you don't have to be as lean as a 21 year old runner to keep up when you're older and your genes are pushing you toward holding more and more body fat.
And I'll again cast serious doubt on that 1:20 takes no fitness. Again, it's no different than natural High school runners who run sub 17s - for them, 7 minute miles are a joke, it's literally slower than hobby jogging for them. But for an average ability age group triathlete, and even a good one it's faster than race pace. (I finish in the top 5% of overall run splits regularly, and 7 min/miles is a pretty firm effort for me, and is outright hard for most of the year outside of peaking.) If you're a natural-ability swimmer, you too may find 1:20s a joke. But look the swimmers who show up to most masters groups in most places (not just the 'elite' ones) - 1:20s are a hard effort for most of them. It's hard for me to believe that all these thousands and thousands of die hard pure adult masters swimmers can't swim at 'no effort' pace for most of their swim given that they swim year-round, seriously.
Just recently had a shoulder op to repair a tear, remove cysts and move the bicep tendon so swimming "normally" is out for me for a while.
I plan to start heading to the pool to work on my kicking and maybe some one arm drills. What type of session would give me the best bang for my buck, so to speak? Any recommendations on drills/distances etc.
Thanks in advance if you have time to answer this, since it's not strictly technique :)
Edited to say: my kicking has always been diabolical, or at least non-existent, so I am looking at this as an opportunity to fix a longstanding weakness. Also, my injured arm was my "stronger" arm, I always felt my left arm was under powered and often contributed less to my overall stroke, so again a chance to iron out any issues with that arm before I swim properly and begin the catch up to a full stroke.
Sorry to hear that. That sucks.
I've dealt with a lot of injured kids over the years. Here are my suggestions.
1. I would spend a lot of time working on managing body position and floating. Here are some sample exercises. Very few people work on these and most people should. Now if you are already swimming pretty fast (let me know!), this might not be that important for you. If,you aren't, they can help a lot.
2. I would definitely work on 1 arm stuff. It will make the transition back to regular swimming much easier. There is probably some cross-transfer between the limbs and just moving through the water is something that should be practiced. Do drills and just swim 1 arm. Time yourself on stuff and try to get faster. It will help when you return to health.
3. Kicking- Are you unable to run/bike because of the arm? If so, I would DEFINITELY kick. Do everything you can to maintain the fitness of your legs. If not, I would probably focus my legs on those disciplines. I don't think kicking is going to make a big difference in your swimming unless you are competing in short events like pool races (i am guessing not) or you are a high level swimmer (correct me if this is the case). If you're able to run and bike, I would focus more on the floating and the one arm stuff (training it as well as pure skill).
4. Clear it with your doctor first- then whatever movement you can do PAIN FREE in the water with the recovering arm will help speed the recovery.
If you decide to kick, take this approach-
Start with short distances and keep the rest periods more open. Kick HARD. Over time, extend the distances. With all the people I have worked with, poor kickers always respond better to this approach than doing extended kick sets with short rest. I am not sure why, but this has been my experience. This is true of endurance athletes as much as it is true of sprinters.
Again, if you can't do anything on land, work HARD on the kicking. It will do a better job of maintaining your overall fitness.
I would take a similar approach to 1 arm stuff. Do whatever skill work you feel is appropriate to you, then add some 1-arm sets that are 'training'. Focus more on intensity and give yourself more rest. This seems to work better for ENDURANCE.
Let me know how that sounds to you based upon where you're at and your experience.
If you have follow-up questions based on context, shoot them my way.
If anyone has training questions, start another thread and I would be happy to provide my perspective.
Thanks for the discussion. I find it fascinating. I went to your website and read a bunch of your articles as well. For video analysis, do you do them or do you have a team that does them? Also, what do you think of form goggles as a training and learning tool?
Once again, you are mixing swimming and running. Please, just dont. Also, I have a hard time beliving that you finish in the overall top 5% of run splits with 7min mile unless you do an Ironman. But that is a different discussion.
Regarding fat swimmer guy: cant tell if you are trolling but since we are using anecdotical evidence, the CEO at my company (at 49y/o and 5.8/255) got back from a 3 months break from the pool and did a 1.12 100m. He was gassed afterwards, but he gets gassed from climbing the stairs too. Sure he cant do series like 10x100m @ 1.45 coming in at 1.25 until he has swum for a few weeks, since fitness comes into play. Put him on a bike though and he cant do 200w.
I dont know if you go to Walmart master groups, or if I found an outlier, but the one I attended consisted of ex swimmers, and no one there swam the times you claim to see.
Somehow I get the feeling that you want an excuse for yourself, for not being fast, and it cant be that you dont understand how to move. After all, you are a smart person, so how can you not get how to do it properly?
I've dealt with a lot of injured kids over the years. Here are my suggestions.
1. I would spend a lot of time working on managing body position and floating. Here are some sample exercises. Very few people work on these and most people should. Now if you are already swimming pretty fast (let me know!), this might not be that important for you. If you aren't, they can help a lot.
2. I would definitely work on 1 arm stuff. It will make the transition back to regular swimming much easier. There is probably some cross-transfer between the limbs and just moving through the water is something that should be practiced. Do drills and just swim 1 arm. Time yourself on stuff and try to get faster. It will help when you return to health.
3. Kicking- Are you unable to run/bike because of the arm? If so, I would DEFINITELY kick. Do everything you can to maintain the fitness of your legs. If not, I would probably focus my legs on those disciplines. I don't think kicking is going to make a big difference in your swimming unless you are competing in short events like pool races (i am guessing not) or you are a high level swimmer (correct me if this is the case). If you're able to run and bike, I would focus more on the floating and the one arm stuff (training it as well as pure skill).
4. Clear it with your doctor first- then whatever movement you can do PAIN FREE in the water with the recovering arm will help speed the recovery.
If you decide to kick, take this approach-
Start with short distances and keep the rest periods more open. Kick HARD. Over time, extend the distances. With all the people I have worked with, poor kickers always respond better to this approach than doing extended kick sets with short rest. I am not sure why, but this has been my experience. This is true of endurance athletes as much as it is true of sprinters.
Again, if you can't do anything on land, work HARD on the kicking. It will do a better job of maintaining your overall fitness.
I would take a similar approach to 1 arm stuff. Do whatever skill work you feel is appropriate to you, then add some 1-arm sets that are 'training'. Focus more on intensity and give yourself more rest. This seems to work better for ENDURANCE.
Let me know how that sounds to you based upon where you're at and your experience.
If you have follow-up questions based on context, shoot them my way.
If anyone has training questions, start another thread and I would be happy to provide my perspective.
Andrew
Awesome answer, thanks Andrew.
I'm the wrong side of 40, just, but have been making big gains in swimming (at least until the injury). My cruising pace pre injury for long intervals was circa 1:30mins / 100m, I'd had a couple of open water test swims including one race, and my time, with some low light affected navigation and an extra 300m was 1hr 02mins, so with a good course and some better navigation I'd have expected to be mid to late 50s for an Ironman leg. The last time I measured a CSS, in 2020, I was around 1:25, and I'd improved significantly from there. So overall I guess I am a slightly above average triathlon swimmer for my age, but nowhere near masters level or dedicated swimmer level. (I'm basing this "average" off contemporaries and Ironman times, so am prepared here for the swimming purists and studs to shoot me down in flames). This is all done without any kick. So whether or not focusing on the kick is important I don't know? I just want to get back in the pool and spend some time, so although I can run and bike, I will maybe have a kick session too, just to feel the water.
I will definitely try the floating, I spend a lot of time on my core, but I am still certain my legs sink, so some general awareness of my body in the water will be very good!
I will also definitely try the single arm drills, my good arm now (the left) was always my weakest, it felt significantly worse when swimming, so in the long run getting ahead of the curve with this arm could be very beneficial.
I swam twice after the injury, it was initially diagnosed as an impingement before they did a scan months later. I had a pretty respectable race on arguably the hardest swim course in triathlon, and this was done with a limited range of motion, and a lot of time lost to zig zagging. I had minimal pain in the water as long as I was careful with the reach and pull, but I seriously lacked power and swim fitness in the end.
Thanks again for the advice, I plan to head to the club meet tomorrow or Thursday, so can give some feedback then!
Once again, you are mixing swimming and running. Please, just dont. Also, I have a hard time beliving that you finish in the overall top 5% of run splits with 7min mile unless you do an Ironman. But that is a different discussion.
Regarding fat swimmer guy: cant tell if you are trolling but since we are using anecdotical evidence, the CEO at my company (at 49y/o and 5.8/255) got back from a 3 months break from the pool and did a 1.12 100m. He was gassed afterwards, but he gets gassed from climbing the stairs too. Sure he cant do series like 10x100m @ 1.45 coming in at 1.25 until he has swum for a few weeks, since fitness comes into play. Put him on a bike though and he cant do 200w.
I dont know if you go to Walmart master groups, or if I found an outlier, but the one I attended consisted of ex swimmers, and no one there swam the times you claim to see.
Somehow I get the feeling that you want an excuse for yourself, for not being fast, and it cant be that you dont understand how to move. After all, you are a smart person, so how can you not get how to do it properly?
Hah - typical ST. If you don't agree with someone, start attacking how fast they are. Classy.
I'm not fast for ST, but I'm happy with my performance. Well, at least outside of swimming! (I typically am a top 15% finisher in tri swims - which means I'll get my doors blown off by any 'real' swimmer, including children)
7 min mile is typically good enough to finish in the top 5-7% of run splits in local races. Not in national class races. But I'm faster than that - 7 min/miles is a z3 training pace for me.
Your CEO isn't a good example. 3 months is definitely not enough to lose 'all your swim fitness'. Swimming deteriorates the slowest of all sports due to non weight bearing. Even a year isn't likely enough for full deterioration (COVID showed this for many). But multiple years like my example above - those ex-D1 guys could barely hold 1:50/100 after 10+ years out of the pool completely on their first 100 back, for real.
Also, you're misinterpreting completely if you think I'm saying a good run/biker should be a good swimmer by default just due to x-over endurance. I'm of the opinion that there's almost no x-over of swimming to bike/run. It's not zero, but it's very, very low for most people. Lots of 2:45 marathon runners who even after years of swim training, are barely 1:50-2:00/100 in OWS even in an Oly.
The run/bike analogy is relevant only because I'm talking about natural ability. There is a bell curve of performance in EVERY sport. You can deny it as much as you want in swimming, but it's there. And competitive swimmers and college swimmers by definition are in the upper tail of that sport. Nobody who was born in that bottom tail of performance will have their parents drag them to swim practice 5x/wk when they are a kid just to get their doors blown off in a joe average swim program.
You'll never get me to believe 1:20/100m is a 'no-effort' swim for everyone, and that the only reason everyone cannot do it is because of technique limiters. I'll readily believe that it may be the case for a competitive/college-talent swimmer, but not for joe average triathlete. Heck, even in your case, in your CEO example you list 1:25/100 as being a workout-type effort for him - far from a no effort float.
As I start to fatigue at the end of a long set or the swim portion of a 70.3/ full distance IM , where should I feel it? I ask because I worry I do not use my lats enough. I tend to tire out in my upper back muscles and arms. I rarely finish a swim thinking my lats are tired. If I'm not using them enough, are there drills I can do to teach myself to engage them? FWIW, I've been working on EVF and sometimes as I'm doing that I try to think about using my lats as I pull back. That does seem to help a bit, at least while I'm doing the drill.
It was not meant as an attack. I try to understand where you are coming from, cause none of the things you write makes sense. The only explanation I could find was you being slow (in the water), and it was a question, not a statement.
My CEO swims 1-2/week at most, not the 60-120min/day you claimed was necessary. If there was any truth to your fitness theory, he would never be capable of going under 1.20 after 3 months of rest with that low of a volume. And why do you move the goal posts? The claim was 1.20 for 100y which translates to 1.28-1.29 scm.
There is no one saying that 1.20/100yards is a no effort swim for everyone. The claim was that if you cant go faster than that once, your technique is the limiter, as the fitness required is not much.
Dont know what to say about your natural ability. I think we have been down that road before and I seem to recall that we dont see eye to eye when it comes to "talent".
It was not meant as an attack. I try to understand where you are coming from, cause none of the things you write makes sense. The only explanation I could find was you being slow (in the water), and it was a question, not a statement.
My CEO swims 1-2/week at most, not the 60-120min/day you claimed was necessary. If there was any truth to your fitness theory, he would never be capable of going under 1.20 after 3 months of rest with that low of a volume. And why do you move the goal posts? The claim was 1.20 for 100y which translates to 1.28-1.29 scm.
There is no one saying that 1.20/100yards is a no effort swim for everyone. The claim was that if you cant go faster than that once, your technique is the limiter, as the fitness required is not much.
Dont know what to say about your natural ability. I think we have been down that road before and I seem to recall that we dont see eye to eye when it comes to "talent".
1-2 swims per week is easily maintenance for anybody with good swim history. I can maintain 95% of my speed at shorter distances on 1 swim per week. This means I can maintain the necessary swim fitness to hold technique at my speed for those short distances. This is a fitness, not a technique issue. Even at 1 swim per week. Ask me again after 3 years out of the pool - fuggetabout it - I'll barely go 2:20/100 (but it will likely come back fast, as those swim muscles do have memory.)
And about your bold statement above - someone posted this in this very thread. I'll admit that his definition of 'fitness' not equaling strength is not what I envision, but it's not too disimilar to what I'm saying. In that drag reduction is the dominant factor to swim 1:20scy
Kalmarian wrote: You are missing the point. The major component in swimming is reducing drag. The major component in running is p/w. Have you never met "fat swimmer guy" who hasnt been to a pool, nor worked out, for 20 years. but still swims laps areound you? Sure, there is some strength required to move properly in the water, but going sub 1.20scy once doesnt require any fitness. Doing series like 10x100 is a different story but that wasnt what MasteringFlow claimed.
"There is no fitness required to go sub 1.20 for 100yards once" is not the same as
"1.20/yards is a no effort swim for everyone"
There is a huge effort for my CEO to go 1.12/100m, which leaves him completely gassed due to his lack of fitness (remember, it is not required).
I am sorry but in my opinion you are just wrong, in your perception of what is needed for swimming, how well fitness stays for 3 months sitting most of the time, probably in training philosophy and most other things. I am pretty sure you feel the same way about me so let us let the thread be used for what it was supposed to be used for.
If you need the last word, go ahead. I won't answer.
"There is no fitness required to go sub 1.20 for 100yards once" is not the same as
"1.20/yards is a no effort swim for everyone"
There is a huge effort for my CEO to go 1.12/100m, which leaves him completely gassed due to his lack of fitness (remember, it is not required).
I am sorry but in my opinion you are just wrong, in your perception of what is needed for swimming, how well fitness stays for 3 months sitting most of the time, probably in training philosophy and most other things. I am pretty sure you feel the same way about me so let us let the thread be used for what it was supposed to be used for.
If you need the last word, go ahead. I won't answer.
I'll have the last word. I'm totally standard in my views of all things tri - I don't subscribe to any wacky concepts, EVEN in swimming.
There's nothing outlandish about believing that there is a real bell curve in swim ability, nor is there nothing outlandish in saying that fitness is a crucial component (but not replacement!) for technique in swimming.
What IS outlandish are ex-comp swimmers who completely deny any natural ability in their swimming or their peers, and also those who keep focusing exclusively on technique and denying how crucial fitness is to swim well at all speeds and distances.
And believe it or not - I obsess over technique in swimming. I can almost guarantee you that I've spent more time on self video analysis in the past 6 months that you probably have in the last 2 years. And I'm nitpicking every last detail to improve, even if I know quite a few of them are beyond my reach (like a Sun Yang EVF.) Just because I believe how fundamental and crucial swim fitness , does not in any way mean I'm ignoring technique - which it seems you believe from me.
I am enjoying following this thread and appreciate your insight. Just jumping on to say thank you. David * Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law * Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
Thanks for the discussion. I find it fascinating. I went to your website and read a bunch of your articles as well. For video analysis, do you do them or do you have a team that does them? Also, what do you think of form goggles as a training and learning tool?
I do the video analysis. The individual gets their own video, sends it to me, and I make up a report with suggestions, exercises to implement, etc. Send me a private message if you want more details.
Form Goggles-
I had not heard about this particular technology until you mentioned. However, I have played around with similar types of devices that provide similar information.
These comments are NOT about Form Goggles in particular, just this type of technology which provides swim metrics.
#1 I have had accuracy issues with some. That makes it difficult to use because you can't trust it. #2 If you don't use the information to IMPROVE, it's useless. #3 The most valuable numbers are stroke count and pace. You can get those yourself by counting your strokes and getting your times. It such a device makes it easier for you to get that information, that's a positive. #4 The other stuff is interesting, but you can survive without it.
Some cool stuff you could do with the information
Can you go faster at the same stroke count? Can you go faster at the same heart rate? Can you go faster at the same stroke rate?
These are all things you can do to improve in subtle ways. At the same time, you can do a lot of these things without the technology with the use of a watch/pace clock, counting your strokes, or manually checking heart rate.
THAT BEING SAID, if you find that the information is accurate AND you actually use the information to try to improve, it certainly can't hurt and could be useful. Of course, it won't accelerate your progress if you don't have a good plan, are working on the right things, working hard, doing the appropriate training, etc.
I'm the wrong side of 40, just, but have been making big gains in swimming (at least until the injury). My cruising pace pre injury for long intervals was circa 1:30mins / 100m, I'd had a couple of open water test swims including one race, and my time, with some low light affected navigation and an extra 300m was 1hr 02mins, so with a good course and some better navigation I'd have expected to be mid to late 50s for an Ironman leg. The last time I measured a CSS, in 2020, I was around 1:25, and I'd improved significantly from there. So overall I guess I am a slightly above average triathlon swimmer for my age, but nowhere near masters level or dedicated swimmer level. (I'm basing this "average" off contemporaries and Ironman times, so am prepared here for the swimming purists and studs to shoot me down in flames). This is all done without any kick. So whether or not focusing on the kick is important I don't know? I just want to get back in the pool and spend some time, so although I can run and bike, I will maybe have a kick session too, just to feel the water.
I will definitely try the floating, I spend a lot of time on my core, but I am still certain my legs sink, so some general awareness of my body in the water will be very good!
I will also definitely try the single arm drills, my good arm now (the left) was always my weakest, it felt significantly worse when swimming, so in the long run getting ahead of the curve with this arm could be very beneficial.
I swam twice after the injury, it was initially diagnosed as an impingement before they did a scan months later. I had a pretty respectable race on arguably the hardest swim course in triathlon, and this was done with a limited range of motion, and a lot of time lost to zig zagging. I had minimal pain in the water as long as I was careful with the reach and pull, but I seriously lacked power and swim fitness in the end.
Thanks again for the advice, I plan to head to the club meet tomorrow or Thursday, so can give some feedback then!
I don't think the kick should be a big emphasis on improvement. I don't think it will transform your swimming, and it might come at a cost- fatigue in training and fatigue in racing. However, being in the water and kicking is a hell of a lot better than doing nothing in the water. Even if your kick doesn't 'improve', the time in the water will be worth it. I've been down that path before.
A big part of great kicking is ankle flexibility. I would not go messing with that as it can leave you injured at worst, or negatively impacting your run at best.
While I think the 1arm is a smart move for the reasons you mentioned, I think the bigger value is that you are still SWIMMING, and that will make the transition back a lot easier.
As I start to fatigue at the end of a long set or the swim portion of a 70.3/ full distance IM , where should I feel it? I ask because I worry I do not use my lats enough. I tend to tire out in my upper back muscles and arms. I rarely finish a swim thinking my lats are tired. If I'm not using them enough, are there drills I can do to teach myself to engage them? FWIW, I've been working on EVF and sometimes as I'm doing that I try to think about using my lats as I pull back. That does seem to help a bit, at least while I'm doing the drill.
Good question. It's a bit strange. You use your lats, but you don't always feel your lats. They don't have a lot innervation, so it's hard to 'feel' them.
When you fatigue during a long set, everything is going to get tired. Arms, shoulders, upper back. They're all working hard and those muscles are going to be more 'pumped'/fatigued that your lets, so you'll feel those preferentially. I would be concerned if you ONLY felt it in your biceps or something like that. That's not a good sign. i would say what you're experiencing is normal.
A great way to FEEL how to use the lats is to take a soccer ball, big pillow, etc and put it in your armpit. Now SQUEEZE. That is the way you want to pull. Open you arm pit as wide as you can (you'll see you more or less assume a EVF and then close it and squeeze the ball. That's the basis of the pull. Let me know if this doesn't make sense and I can try to get pictures (ANYONE reading this that wants pictures just reply).
Get your hand deeper than elbow Get your hand inside the elbow Pull straight back (when you do, try to squeeze the soccer ball).
Just keep in mind you're not going to feel it like you feel a biceps curl. If you perform the right basic movements, the appropriate muscles will do the work.
What’s the best way, for an AOS, to develop a good grip on the water? Can you describe it terms/metaphors that don’t include “pulling yourself over a barrel?â€
I have been swimming since 2014, and I still feel like I can’t wrap my head around a proper catch or what physical cues I should be aiming for. @floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
I have been swimming since 2014, and I still feel like I can’t wrap my head around a proper catch or what physical cues I should be aiming for. //
A couple of easy physical cues would be the bubbles trapped on your hand. To get a good"grip" as you put it, you have to release this bubbles before the hand moves back. Another physical cue is your hand lower than your elbow in the catch phase?
The barrel thing has been overdone, so maybe use the word anchor in your head? You are anchoring your hand to a spot, then using your body's rotation and EVF to get it moving backwards, all the while holding that anchor position. Does that help your visualization?
A great way to FEEL how to use the lats is to take a soccer ball, big pillow, etc and put it in your armpit. Now SQUEEZE. That is the way you want to pull. Open you arm pit as wide as you can (you'll see you more or less assume a EVF and then close it and squeeze the ball. That's the basis of the pull. Let me know if this doesn't make sense and I can try to get pictures (ANYONE reading this that wants pictures just reply).
Get your hand deeper than elbow Get your hand inside the elbow Pull straight back (when you do, try to squeeze the soccer ball).
Andrew
The concept of "holding the water" has always intrigued me, especially when I see my friends in my Masters' swim club able to move so fast through the water even though many of them can't do even one pull-up, and how much slower I am even though I have a far higher strength to weight ratio. I think this ability (being able to hold on to the water and sense the minute pressure differentials that provide the information as to how much the hand is slipping) is the elusive "natural ability" that has been debated so much in this thread.
I am looking forward to trying the three tips you gave at swim club tonight!
Many thanks for the advice in this thread, you are hitting the perfect balance of technical advice expressed in "layman's" terms.
Tips or drills for a swimmer that has poor body alignment and lots of "fish tailing"?
Best drill bar none for this is tight ankle band swimming. Start with a pull buoy+band, then move up to band only.
Try not to do too many dolphin kicks while banded.
The band on your ankles will remove any compensating kick, and reveal stroke errors that push you laterally and thus fishtail (requiring a kick to compensate.) It also forces you to swim with less vertical oscillation, as you'll find that if you 'bounce' in the water at all, it'll get amplified and your legs will then drop suddenly to the bottom.
It's challenging, but start slow and don't give up.
I'm with you on this. I can't seem to catch the water like the better swimmers...always feel like there's some slippage.
A couple of days ago I watched a girl a couple of lanes over ripping it at sub 1:10 scy pace (well, she was turning to her feet at 17 secs/25..so about 1:08's) without much of a kick. Distance per stroke was amazing. We chatted. I found out she use to swim in the next lane over from Katie Ledecky (I guess that was the Nations Capital Swim Club since she said it was in the DC area).
She said my body position looked ok so if I can just figure out the propulsion part I'm good. : )
What’s the best way, for an AOS, to develop a good grip on the water? Can you describe it terms/metaphors that don’t include “pulling yourself over a barrel?â€
I have been swimming since 2014, and I still feel like I can’t wrap my head around a proper catch or what physical cues I should be aiming for.
Don't worry, I hate that term as well!
Some thoughts-
1. The catch is a very misleading concept. You're not 'catching' anything. You're 'repositioning'. Doesn't sound quite so exciting! That repositioning takes place when you enter. Initially, you hand/arm is moving straight ahead and gets more or less straight in front of you. It needs to get in the following position-
-Hand is deeper than elbow -Hand is inside the elbow
I tried to upload a sample picture. Let me know if I was successful. This is an EXAMPLE of someone getting into the basic position. The elbow can be more or less bent and the hand can be more or less deep.
Another simple way to think about this is to just POP THE ELBOW out. The hand is pretty much going to go deep no matter what, so just pop the elbow out. POP isn't even really the right word, it's almost like you just release it out.
Try this- 1. Stand or sit up straight. 2. Put your arm straight out in front of your body (arm is parallel to the ground) 3. Pop you elbow out to the side. You'll see you achieve a position like the image shows. Pop it more and get more elbow bend. Pop less and it's straight. 4. Now reach you arm to the ceiling. Let it come forward towards the ground, as it does pop the elbow. 5. Look at the basic position, exactly what you want. Just practice the timing in the water. Just pop the elbow out.
So the 'catch' doesn't really FEEL like anything. It's just a repositioning. Once you're in position, THEN you start putting some gas into it and pull straight back AFTER your in the money position.
There is SOME more nuance to this, However, it's 90% of the battle.
2. Make you hands/forearms smarter. Do some swimming with the hand positions I have attached in the image (again let me know if this doesn't show up). This accomplishes 2 things. #1 it takes away the hands so that you're forced to get the forearm into the action (rather than thinking about it, it happens pretty naturally). If you don't, you won't go anywhere. #2 When you open the hands back up, you can feel EVERYTHING. It can be very helpful in creating awareness of what your hands are doing and how they're interacting with the water.
With everything, try to keep it simple and ACTIONABLE.
Please let me know if this help you, or if anyone finds it useful. Happy to expand.
Tips or drills for a swimmer that has poor body alignment and lots of "fish tailing"?
Fishtailing-
This is often a result of poor rotation and really wide and low arm recoveries, which are often a result of poor rotation. The rotation of the body makes up for the shoulder's lack of mobility, allow you to recover the arms up higher. It's not that more rotation is better, it's just that there needs to be enough to effectively recover the arms. Without seeing video, my initial guess would be that rotation and really low/wide recoveries (almost like butterly) are part of the problem.
The band/buoy or band exercise that lightheir suggests will certainly expose weaknesses and give you a lot of feedback as to when you're losing position. If you aren't recovering more over the top or you're swinging across your body, you will be punished. As he suggests, if you use this exercise, definitely start with a buoy and a band. Recovering higher with more rotation will probably help you be effective here.
Another one is the paddle cap freestyle I've referenced and linked to earlier. If the head is moving around, the shoulders, hips, and legs are going to follow. Like the band, the paddle gives you feedback as to whether you're moving around too much.
Body alignment-
If the legs are dragging, I believe strongly that it is an issue with managing the lungs and learning how to leverage their flotation. There are a coupled basic exercises I link earlier (BALL FLOAT) and (ELEVATOR SWIM)
I come back to this a lot, but if you can use the flotation of your lungs to find stability in the water, a lot of other skills become much more difficult to manage.
The concept of "holding the water" has always intrigued me, especially when I see my friends in my Masters' swim club able to move so fast through the water even though many of them can't do even one pull-up, and how much slower I am even though I have a far higher strength to weight ratio. I think this ability (being able to hold on to the water and sense the minute pressure differentials that provide the information as to how much the hand is slipping) is the elusive "natural ability" that has been debated so much in this thread.
I am looking forward to trying the three tips you gave at swim club tonight!
Many thanks for the advice in this thread, you are hitting the perfect balance of technical advice expressed in "layman's" terms.
I appreciate the kinds words.
Yes, there pressure differentials is a big part of it. The hand positions I posted a few minutes ago are the best dual I know of that can help develop this ability. It can definitely be improved. Of course, as with anything in life, some people are just better than others. This is PART of the natural ability good swimmers have.
It is my opinion that a BIGGER component of natural ability is the ability to assume very streamlined position. Some of this is active (what they are doing), but an even bigger component is the shape of their spine and having the flexibility in their other joints to move their limbs without changing their spinal alignment.
Many of the best swimmers I have coached have almost literally straight spines. They have the right hulls. There have been all-Americans that can't do a pull-up! It's the shape that matters.
My guesses that your masters friends are probably more effective in their arm action, but MUCH more effectively in their alignment through the water.
Tips or drills for a swimmer that has poor body alignment and lots of "fish tailing"?
Best drill bar none for this is tight ankle band swimming. Start with a pull buoy+band, then move up to band only.
Try not to do too many dolphin kicks while banded.
The band on your ankles will remove any compensating kick, and reveal stroke errors that push you laterally and thus fishtail (requiring a kick to compensate.) It also forces you to swim with less vertical oscillation, as you'll find that if you 'bounce' in the water at all, it'll get amplified and your legs will then drop suddenly to the bottom.
It's challenging, but start slow and don't give up.
This is an example of an exercise that does the teaching for you. The feedback is immediate and you can't fake it. You do it or you don't.
For those coaching themselves, finding these exercises is CRITICAL. They may be more difficult to succeed with at first, but once you get it, you've GOT it.
I'm with you on this. I can't seem to catch the water like the better swimmers...always feel like there's some slippage.
A couple of days ago I watched a girl a couple of lanes over ripping it at sub 1:10 scy pace (well, she was turning to her feet at 17 secs/25..so about 1:08's) without much of a kick. Distance per stroke was amazing. We chatted. I found out she use to swim in the next lane over from Katie Ledecky (I guess that was the Nations Capital Swim Club since she said it was in the DC area).
She said my body position looked ok so if I can just figure out the propulsion part I'm good. : )
I tried the squeeze the ball visualization technique today. That worked ok but it slowed my stroke rate down. I’m ok with that if I’m on the right track and it’s just a matter of gaining fitness using different muscle groups.
I’ve also been working on my breath timing. If I get it wrong I start the pull on the non breathing side with my hand at an angle and I slip water.
it could help others, but what if I need to be a fast swimmer? like 16 min 1500. i know its work your ass off. just want to put the effort in the right direction
hey man good thread. I went through all your links. brought me back to my swim coaching days where we'd get those new to swimming 5-10 year olds. Your links are some of the first things we did with the new to swimming kids. Learn how to float, learn how balance, learn how to rock back and forth, learn to be comfortable in the water.
All things that as swimmers we do/did all through the years but as triathletes we rarely, if ever, do when we hit the pool or even at a well organized masters program.
Thanks for this, both the trip down memory lane and the refresher to have my athletes just be kids in the pool more often! Brian Stover USAT LII Accelerate3 Coaching Insta
I tried this last night. I couldn’t do it. I would ball up and my feet would roll to the bottom of the pool and my head would be towards the surface of the water.
My wife tried it, and she instantly floated like the video shows.
Additionally, I couldn’t lay flat on the surface… my legs would sink. Again, my wife had no problem floating flat on the surface.
She is an AOS, too, and definitely isn’t as strong as I am in the water…
Great thread, very kind of you to spend your time helping us.
I just took my first videos of my stroke with a local swim instructor. Immediately, the two glaring problems that were obvious to both of us were that I have zero ankle mobility, my feet literally point straight down at the bottom of the pool at a right angle to travel AND I was craning my neck to get to air and it was a wacky angle that clearly wasn't aerodynamic.
So, I started a bunch of drills to improve the breathing and have realized that I need to enter the water a bit early and really watch my catch with my opposite arm (I breath left, so my right arm). When I do this it really cleans up the pocket and allows me to leave a goggle lens in the water and keep my head straight in line with my spine. Now, I'm continuing to practice this, but I'm also noticing that I need a little more rotation to that side now to clear the bottom of pull and start the recovery more relaxed and efficiently. Does that sound practical? Is this a normal progression of cleaning up the opposite arm catch? I'm going to start working on the other side breathing soon, so I want to make sure I'm not ingraining more bad habits.
I think I'm swimming the same speed, which is just kind of cruising, not trying to swim fast and about 2:00 / 100 yards. I feel like I'm putting out a lot less effort and my stroke count is going down.
Also, what to do about the ankle mobility other than stretch. Ironically, I have a friend who trains strength and lifting and we were working through some clean and snatch drills and he commented that my ankles have terrible mobility. So, it's consistent. ;)
I tried this last night. I couldn’t do it. I would ball up and my feet would roll to the bottom of the pool and my head would be towards the surface of the water.
My wife tried it, and she instantly floated like the video shows.
Additionally, I couldn’t lay flat on the surface… my legs would sink. Again, my wife had no problem floating flat on the surface.
She is an AOS, too, and definitely isn’t as strong as I am in the water…
So what gives? What am I doing wrong?
Me too! I did the ball float and my back was fully submerged - it seems I "float" about 5-10 cm below the surface of the water!
Tips or drills for a swimmer that has poor body alignment and lots of "fish tailing"?
Best drill bar none for this is tight ankle band swimming. Start with a pull buoy+band, then move up to band only.
Try not to do too many dolphin kicks while banded.
The band on your ankles will remove any compensating kick, and reveal stroke errors that push you laterally and thus fishtail (requiring a kick to compensate.) It also forces you to swim with less vertical oscillation, as you'll find that if you 'bounce' in the water at all, it'll get amplified and your legs will then drop suddenly to the bottom.
It's challenging, but start slow and don't give up.
I've tried this on and off for a few years and can never get my feet to be anywhere near the surface. Tried engaging the core, altering my posture, etc. Any factors I can key in on to have my feet not sink to the bottom of the pool with a band on?
Tips or drills for a swimmer that has poor body alignment and lots of "fish tailing"?
Best drill bar none for this is tight ankle band swimming. Start with a pull buoy+band, then move up to band only.
Try not to do too many dolphin kicks while banded.
The band on your ankles will remove any compensating kick, and reveal stroke errors that push you laterally and thus fishtail (requiring a kick to compensate.) It also forces you to swim with less vertical oscillation, as you'll find that if you 'bounce' in the water at all, it'll get amplified and your legs will then drop suddenly to the bottom.
It's challenging, but start slow and don't give up.
I've tried this on and off for a few years and can never get my feet to be anywhere near the surface. Tried engaging the core, altering my posture, etc. Any factors I can key in on to have my feet not sink to the bottom of the pool with a band on?
It just takes practice.
Again, start with a pullbuoy, two if needed. Once you get that down, you can work on removing it.
A snorkel will also help to get the inital body position down before you put the breathing back in.
A key concept to do this drill-swim correctly is to minimize extraneous movements. As said before, without the kick to compensate, any errant motion will get amplified. Lift your head a little, your legs will sink - then you dolphin kick which fixes it but then your legs bounce after the kick and then they're back sinking to the floor. The key is to avoid that initial motion to not set off the chain of events that make you sink.
I actually found it very helpful to start by swimming stupidly slow, like nearly just floating. I've seen other advice about 'high arm turnover' for this banded swim, but I've found that only to be a VERY advanced version of it. It's more like a survival float with a hint of arm pulling in the beginner version of it.
You'll get it - it's actually not that hard despite seeming impossible for the first few times you do it.
I tried the squeeze the ball visualization technique today. That worked ok but it slowed my stroke rate down. I’m ok with that if I’m on the right track and it’s just a matter of gaining fitness using different muscle groups.
I’ve also been working on my breath timing. If I get it wrong I start the pull on the non breathing side with my hand at an angle and I slip water.
1. If you're worried about stroke rate going down, keep track of your times and your stroke counts. If one or both of those numbers are improving, you are on the right track. You should do that with ANY change. That's how you can judge whether it's being effective. You don't need any special technology to do that, either.
2. With any change, it usually requires a bit of conscious effort at first. That will probably slow your rate down. IN addition, at first, you may be really trying to squeeze the pull and squeeze your muscles. That fine at first. However, once you've got the basic action down, it should just sort of happen. You don't have to or want to get a really strong squeeze. That takes too much time. With practice, that tends to sort itself out.
It could be gaining strength in other areas. It's also probably just a coordination issue that will smooth out sooner than later.
3. Breathing is a major factor in messing up the arm pull. If you lift your head to breathe, you instinctively start to pull/press on the water to try to create stability. Whenever you see someone slip through the front part of their stroke, it often happens when they breathe. This can happen in swimmers with an otherwise good pull. Breathing is CRITICAL! It can negatively affect body position AND the effectiveness of the pull. Any you're probably breathing 33%-50% of the time.
it could help others, but what if I need to be a fast swimmer? like 16 min 1500. i know its work your ass off. just want to put the effort in the right direction
The answer to that question is a book my friend!
I'll try to be helpful.
That is legit swimming in a pool and that is LEGIT swimming open water.
There are 3 big things you need to accomplish. They are ALL important. I am not listing them in order of importance. You won't accomplish the goal without all 3 unless you are a FREAK. If you are, why are you reading this:)?
With all my statements below, there are execeptions IF you are EXCEPTIONAL in 1 or 2 of the other areas.
1. You obviously need to be fit. Really fit. That requires accumulating some volume AND swimming at high intensity for extended periods of time.
What's a lot of volume? Multiples 10s of 1000s of meters a week. Probably like a college/high level age club middle distance swimmer. It doesn't have to be/shouldn't all be hard, but you need to swim.
What's high intensity for extended periods of time. Stuff like 20x100 at race pace; 6x400 at threshold type effort. Nothing special about those types of sets, just an example of the type of work.
However, most people know this.
2. You have to be FAST. Most people do NOT realize this. If you can't go under WAY 30 seconds for a 50m freestyle, no shot. If you can't go under 1 minute for 100 meters, no shot.
You have to always be working on speed. 25s/50s FAST with plenty of rest. It's the opposite of #1. It is NOT lactate type work. It's FAST with a lot of rest, not training to fatigue.
This isn't something you throw in when you wanted to 'taper' or 'sharpen'. It needs to be every week, year round.
If you are familiar with pool swimming, Katie Ledecky went 15:20 something in the 1500, not because she was super fit (though she was). She went that fast because she could go 53 in the 100m when her competitors were going 56. Same on the mens' side. Sun Yang went 48. The other guys are going 51. No contest.
3. You have to improve your skills. You won’t be able to improve your speed and your fitness to the required level if your skills can’t support it. If your skills aren’t good enough, you won’t be able to create the speed. If you’re skills aren’t efficient, you won’t be able to sustain your speed.
#2 and #3 are often forgotten.
Some other ideas-
If your fitness is improving, but your speed is not, you will plateau sooner than later. If your speed is improving, but your technique is not, you will plateau sooner than later.
hey man good thread. I went through all your links. brought me back to my swim coaching days where we'd get those new to swimming 5-10 year olds. Your links are some of the first things we did with the new to swimming kids. Learn how to float, learn how balance, learn how to rock back and forth, learn to be comfortable in the water.
All things that as swimmers we do/did all through the years but as triathletes we rarely, if ever, do when we hit the pool or even at a well organized masters program.
Thanks for this, both the trip down memory lane and the refresher to have my athletes just be kids in the pool more often!
Hey Brian,
I appreciate the kind words.
This is EXACTLY the point. It is fundamental work that the majority of young swimmers are exposed to directly through similar activities, or indirectly through spending a lot of time in the water playing, etc. These kids are COMFORTABLE in the water.
In contrast, AOS completely skip this step and try to layer swimming skills on top of a non-existent foundation. There is no learning to be comfortable in the water in structured format and certainly no play.
Work on developing a solid foundation, and add the specific skills to it.
I tried this last night. I couldn’t do it. I would ball up and my feet would roll to the bottom of the pool and my head would be towards the surface of the water.
My wife tried it, and she instantly floated like the video shows.
Additionally, I couldn’t lay flat on the surface… my legs would sink. Again, my wife had no problem floating flat on the surface.
She is an AOS, too, and definitely isn’t as strong as I am in the water…
So what gives? What am I doing wrong?
Due to body proportions, body density, etc. some people just ride higher and better in the water.
However, I wouldn't worry about where you end up. Your position doesn't matter. Your STABILITY does. If you can find stability, even if your head is almost vertical, you're good. I am the same way. I have muscular legs and I am a dense person. I don't ride high or level. It's find stability and comfort that's important, then expanding the number of positions you can find stability.
Laying flat on the surface is very difficult. I can't do it. As you saw in the video, the one demonstrator did it easily, the other not so much. The value is not so much in obtaining the position, but the challenging of 'fighting' for position.
It's actually easier to hold your position while moving, so if you can't do it in a more difficult situation, that's a win. Based upon what you're saying, I would just stick with the lower end exercises. You'll get more out of them than the ones where you really struggle.
Remember that goal is some level of comfort, not achieving a specific position.
Great thread, very kind of you to spend your time helping us.
I just took my first videos of my stroke with a local swim instructor. Immediately, the two glaring problems that were obvious to both of us were that I have zero ankle mobility, my feet literally point straight down at the bottom of the pool at a right angle to travel AND I was craning my neck to get to air and it was a wacky angle that clearly wasn't aerodynamic.
So, I started a bunch of drills to improve the breathing and have realized that I need to enter the water a bit early and really watch my catch with my opposite arm (I breath left, so my right arm). When I do this it really cleans up the pocket and allows me to leave a goggle lens in the water and keep my head straight in line with my spine. Now, I'm continuing to practice this, but I'm also noticing that I need a little more rotation to that side now to clear the bottom of pull and start the recovery more relaxed and efficiently. Does that sound practical? Is this a normal progression of cleaning up the opposite arm catch? I'm going to start working on the other side breathing soon, so I want to make sure I'm not ingraining more bad habits.
I think I'm swimming the same speed, which is just kind of cruising, not trying to swim fast and about 2:00 / 100 yards. I feel like I'm putting out a lot less effort and my stroke count is going down.
Also, what to do about the ankle mobility other than stretch. Ironically, I have a friend who trains strength and lifting and we were working through some clean and snatch drills and he commented that my ankles have terrible mobility. So, it's consistent. ;)
Thanks for any suggestions.
I think I understand what you are saying. Yes, that makes sense. If you are going at the same speed with less effort and fewer strokes, that is a DEFINITE win. You're on the right track. Pay attention to effort, time, and stroke count. If 2 of the 3 are improving, you are making progress. If all 3 are improving, even better.
Ankle mobility- not really stretching is the only real option. CAUTION- stretching your ankles is playing with fire. If you do too much too soon, you WILL get hurt. You also need to be careful that stretching your ankles could it some way compromise your running. Really good swimmers have really flexible ankles and they're mostly terrible runners and are always getting hurt. It CAN work, but you have to be really careful and it's not always worth it, especially in the context of triathlon. Do as you will, but please be careful.
Me too! I did the ball float and my back was fully submerged - it seems I "float" about 5-10 cm below the surface of the water!
As I said to cloy, even if you ride low, that's okay provided that you are stable and feel like you could 'rest' there. It's more about learning how to be comfortable in the water than achieving a perfect position.
I've tried this on and off for a few years and can never get my feet to be anywhere near the surface. Tried engaging the core, altering my posture, etc. Any factors I can key in on to have my feet not sink to the bottom of the pool with a band on?
In all of the Total Immersion literature Terry Laughlin recommends you reach a little deeper before starting your catch to plane your legs out. As if your fingers are the flaps on an airplane wing and you let your upper body follow them in a little deeper and your legs will rise. I find this to be true, but I don't know if that's considered "good technique" really? I know some of what he taught isn't in fashion any longer.
I find the issue I have when I glide deeper is that my face is further away from the surface when I go to breath, so I rotate more to get there.
Never thought about a second swim buoy. That sounds like it could help me as my legs sink with just one.
I think I'll just accept my poor ankle flexibility and work on the other elements of my stroke for now.
Matt, you might want to try kicking (a lot) with fins. That will help loosen up the ankles a bit.
Thank you.
Just got some real big powerful fins and am swimming with them a lot. Basically doing a 100 focusing on technique then 100 of drills with my fins back and forth until I can't hold form. Hoping it will help!
Me too! I did the ball float and my back was fully submerged - it seems I "float" about 5-10 cm below the surface of the water!
As I said to cloy, even if you ride low, that's okay provided that you are stable and feel like you could 'rest' there. It's more about learning how to be comfortable in the water than achieving a perfect position.
Are you pretty lean?
Yes, and on the stocky side for a triathlete (5'9" and 160 pounds with low body fat). I played a lot of rugby and then martial arts through my teens, twenties and thirties; since moving to triathlon in my mid-30s my body shape hasn't really changed. If I back off endurance training and start lifting, I hit 175 pounds really fast. I've always felt like a "sinker" and my wetsuit vs. pool swim times bear this out:
pool 1500 best last year: 26:00 lake (wetsuit) 1900 last year: 27:59
Do you have any special advice for dense people like me? I've always been told to kick more to keep my heavy quads up, but that is really tiring and has a negative impact on the rest of my race...
I tried this last night. I couldn’t do it. I would ball up and my feet would roll to the bottom of the pool and my head would be towards the surface of the water.
My wife tried it, and she instantly floated like the video shows.
Additionally, I couldn’t lay flat on the surface… my legs would sink. Again, my wife had no problem floating flat on the surface.
She is an AOS, too, and definitely isn’t as strong as I am in the water…
So what gives? What am I doing wrong?
Due to body proportions, body density, etc. some people just ride higher and better in the water.
However, I wouldn't worry about where you end up. Your position doesn't matter. Your STABILITY does. If you can find stability, even if your head is almost vertical, you're good. I am the same way. I have muscular legs and I am a dense person. I don't ride high or level. It's find stability and comfort that's important, then expanding the number of positions you can find stability.
Laying flat on the surface is very difficult. I can't do it. As you saw in the video, the one demonstrator did it easily, the other not so much. The value is not so much in obtaining the position, but the challenging of 'fighting' for position.
It's actually easier to hold your position while moving, so if you can't do it in a more difficult situation, that's a win. Based upon what you're saying, I would just stick with the lower end exercises. You'll get more out of them than the ones where you really struggle.
Remember that goal is some level of comfort, not achieving a specific position.
I hope that helps.
Andrew
Went back last night and took a huge breath and was able to find that sweet spot a little easier. Thanks!
I also did really focused/deliberate swimming last night with an ankle band (as well as your elevator drill). I have never really experienced “pressing the T†before, but I was shocked at the feeling of swimming downhill. I hate to use these cliches, but I certainly experienced something I’ve never felt before. It was most notably in my feet… my feet seemed to be tucked into cleaner water (rather than feeling turbulence of the tops of my feet). I can assume that my feet were in my body’s slipstream. But I could be totally wrong. All I know is that I got just a taste of better body position last night and I’m excited to chase it again.
I was doing 50s on the elevator drill. I’m 5 seconds faster with a lower head position than a higher one. Crazy. @floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
In all of the Total Immersion literature Terry Laughlin recommends you reach a little deeper before starting your catch to plane your legs out. As if your fingers are the flaps on an airplane wing and you let your upper body follow them in a little deeper and your legs will rise. I find this to be true, but I don't know if that's considered "good technique" really? I know some of what he taught isn't in fashion any longer.
I find the issue I have when I glide deeper is that my face is further away from the surface when I go to breath, so I rotate more to get there.
Never thought about a second swim buoy. That sounds like it could help me as my legs sink with just one.
I think I'll just accept my poor ankle flexibility and work on the other elements of my stroke for now.
If you reach deeper, the hips/legs will likely rise. The POTENTIAL issue is that you will miss out on some of the front part of the stroke. It then becomes an issue of trade-offs. If your body position is terrible and you otherwise do a good job with the pull, I would roll with that. If the opposite is true, I would caution you. Reaching deeper is probably more sustainable as a better hip position is generally smoother. If that's a priority, then that move might be a good choice.
Having to rotate more isn't necessarily a problem. It will take longer and thus slow your stroke rate. That may or may not be an issue for you. Something to try is to reach down WITHOUT pressing your head too much. If you can manage that, you may find that you have the best of both worlds.
Matt, you might want to try kicking (a lot) with fins. That will help loosen up the ankles a bit.
Agreed. This will work as well. The same caution applies. Too much, too soon can cause problems. As with any new stress, be patient and increase volume/intensity slowly.
Yes, and on the stocky side for a triathlete (5'9" and 160 pounds with low body fat). I played a lot of rugby and then martial arts through my teens, twenties and thirties; since moving to triathlon in my mid-30s my body shape hasn't really changed. If I back off endurance training and start lifting, I hit 175 pounds really fast. I've always felt like a "sinker" and my wetsuit vs. pool swim times bear this out:
pool 1500 best last year: 26:00 lake (wetsuit) 1900 last year: 27:59
Do you have any special advice for dense people like me? I've always been told to kick more to keep my heavy quads up, but that is really tiring and has a negative impact on the rest of my race...
Go it. Makes sense. You will always ride lower in the water. It is what it is. However, that is not a death sentence. You just have to work harder to stay level. I've found that people like this need to work HARDER to press/lean into the chest/lungs/water. That will help you ride more level in the water.
As far as practicing the floating exercises, stick with the basic ones, and get a feel for the what the lungs do. Focus on POSITION (being level) rather than being high in the water. That probably isn't in the cards. Focus on being level. That will make the biggest difference. Getting the legs up is the key. Learning how lean/press will help.
This exercise is useful too for exploring the extremes.
Went back last night and took a huge breath and was able to find that sweet spot a little easier. Thanks!
I also did really focused/deliberate swimming last night with an ankle band (as well as your elevator drill). I have never really experienced “pressing the T†before, but I was shocked at the feeling of swimming downhill. I hate to use these cliches, but I certainly experienced something I’ve never felt before. It was most notably in my feet… my feet seemed to be tucked into cleaner water (rather than feeling turbulence of the tops of my feet). I can assume that my feet were in my body’s slipstream. But I could be totally wrong. All I know is that I got just a taste of better body position last night and I’m excited to chase it again.
I was doing 50s on the elevator drill. I’m 5 seconds faster with a lower head position than a higher one. Crazy.
YES! It's hard to explain, but once you get it, you GET it. It takes a little practice to make it work.
The feet being tucked in cleaner water is a good observation as well. It's because they're not dragging any more!
Swimming downhill is a cliche. However, once you get in the right position, that's pretty much what it feels like.
5 SECONDS IS HUGE!
Congrats. Keep searching. There's likely more nuance to figure out.
My training plan kicks out workouts with pace zones i.e. smooth is 2:33 to 2:26 per 100, threshold is 2:17 to 2:08.
I'm always pretty much just swimming at threshold or slightly faster, so is it worth it to try and figure out how to swim that slow? I feel like I'm sinking at slower than 2:15 per 100. Is there a benefit to a real slow "recovery" stroke?
My training plan kicks out workouts with pace zones i.e. smooth is 2:33 to 2:26 per 100, threshold is 2:17 to 2:08.
I'm always pretty much just swimming at threshold or slightly faster, so is it worth it to try and figure out how to swim that slow? I feel like I'm sinking at slower than 2:15 per 100. Is there a benefit to a real slow "recovery" stroke?
Thanks!
Good question.
Yes, for a few reasons.
1. If you feel like you're sinking at slower speeds, it's likely that you're not as stable/comfortable in the water as you could be. Going a little faster can help keep body position more in line. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but swimming slower actually challenges your skills more (as does swimming really fast). The more you can swim comfortably at a range of speed, the better control you have on your skills.
2. I'm not sure exactly what you're experiencing when you're racing. If you're feel like you're always working against yourself, and you're concerned about your ability to finish longer races, the only way to change that is to slow down so that you feel like you're in control from a fatigue standpoint, then aim increase the speed at which you can sustain that level of comfort. This works better when performed in conjunction with higher intensity stuff, which it sounds like you're doing. It's really valuable learning how to swim at speeds are physically sustainable, even if it doesn't feel right technically at first. You can figure out the technique.
3. From a physiological perspective, you can either 'push' your threshold up by increasing the speed at which you can swim sub-threshold speeds. Or you can 'pull' your threshold up by consistently swimming at or faster than threshold. Not sure how much you are swimming in terms of TIME. If it's limited, then the pull strategy tends to work better. If it's more, the push strategy can be a good one, particularly if you are training hard out of the water.
Does that make sense within the context of what you're feeling and experiencing?
My training plan kicks out workouts with pace zones i.e. smooth is 2:33 to 2:26 per 100, threshold is 2:17 to 2:08.
I'm always pretty much just swimming at threshold or slightly faster, so is it worth it to try and figure out how to swim that slow? I feel like I'm sinking at slower than 2:15 per 100. Is there a benefit to a real slow "recovery" stroke?
Thanks!
Good question.
Yes, for a few reasons.
1. If you feel like you're sinking at slower speeds, it's likely that you're not as stable/comfortable in the water as you could be. Going a little faster can help keep body position more in line. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but swimming slower actually challenges your skills more (as does swimming really fast). The more you can swim comfortably at a range of speed, the better control you have on your skills.
2. I'm not sure exactly what you're experiencing when you're racing. If you're feel like you're always working against yourself, and you're concerned about your ability to finish longer races, the only way to change that is to slow down so that you feel like you're in control from a fatigue standpoint, then aim increase the speed at which you can sustain that level of comfort. This works better when performed in conjunction with higher intensity stuff, which it sounds like you're doing. It's really valuable learning how to swim at speeds are physically sustainable, even if it doesn't feel right technically at first. You can figure out the technique.
3. From a physiological perspective, you can either 'push' your threshold up by increasing the speed at which you can swim sub-threshold speeds. Or you can 'pull' your threshold up by consistently swimming at or faster than threshold. Not sure how much you are swimming in terms of TIME. If it's limited, then the pull strategy tends to work better. If it's more, the push strategy can be a good one, particularly if you are training hard out of the water.
Does that make sense within the context of what you're feeling and experiencing?
Andrew
It does make a lot of sense.
I'm hoping to relocate soon to somewhere with coached master swimming because I really think that's what I need.
I feel like I could swim all day in a wetsuit albeit not very fast. But, I really struggled in a non-wetsuit legal race last year even at just a half IM 1.2 mile distance.
I'm swimming twice a week right now for an hour, about 30 minutes of sets and 30 minutes of drills. I've repeatedly been told to increase that volume. I'm not in a real training block right now, as I'm working on building some mass in order to cut some weight later, but I think I may try and go to 3 swims per week of 90 minutes.
I tried some slower sets today but didn't do very well. Seems I kinda always swim at the same speed.
My training plan kicks out workouts with pace zones i.e. smooth is 2:33 to 2:26 per 100, threshold is 2:17 to 2:08.
I'm always pretty much just swimming at threshold or slightly faster, so is it worth it to try and figure out how to swim that slow? I feel like I'm sinking at slower than 2:15 per 100. Is there a benefit to a real slow "recovery" stroke?
Thanks!
Good question.
Yes, for a few reasons.
1. If you feel like you're sinking at slower speeds, it's likely that you're not as stable/comfortable in the water as you could be. Going a little faster can help keep body position more in line. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but swimming slower actually challenges your skills more (as does swimming really fast). The more you can swim comfortably at a range of speed, the better control you have on your skills.
2. I'm not sure exactly what you're experiencing when you're racing. If you're feel like you're always working against yourself, and you're concerned about your ability to finish longer races, the only way to change that is to slow down so that you feel like you're in control from a fatigue standpoint, then aim increase the speed at which you can sustain that level of comfort. This works better when performed in conjunction with higher intensity stuff, which it sounds like you're doing. It's really valuable learning how to swim at speeds are physically sustainable, even if it doesn't feel right technically at first. You can figure out the technique.
3. From a physiological perspective, you can either 'push' your threshold up by increasing the speed at which you can swim sub-threshold speeds. Or you can 'pull' your threshold up by consistently swimming at or faster than threshold. Not sure how much you are swimming in terms of TIME. If it's limited, then the pull strategy tends to work better. If it's more, the push strategy can be a good one, particularly if you are training hard out of the water.
Does that make sense within the context of what you're feeling and experiencing?
Andrew
Was able to consistently slow down today to about 2:25 to 2:30! Should I try even slower?
It was amazing. Seemed so easy. I swam 4 sets of 400 yards and it seemed so comfortable. I didn't realize I was so pumped out swimming 1:55 to 2:05 all the time.
I'm hoping to relocate soon to somewhere with coached master swimming because I really think that's what I need.
I feel like I could swim all day in a wetsuit albeit not very fast. But, I really struggled in a non-wetsuit legal race last year even at just a half IM 1.2 mile distance.
I'm swimming twice a week right now for an hour, about 30 minutes of sets and 30 minutes of drills. I've repeatedly been told to increase that volume. I'm not in a real training block right now, as I'm working on building some mass in order to cut some weight later, but I think I may try and go to 3 swims per week of 90 minutes.
I tried some slower sets today but didn't do very well. Seems I kinda always swim at the same speed.
If you're struggling without the wetsuit, it sounds like the balance/comfort issue is a big one, and the wetsuit is helping cover for you. While it's great to take advantage of the suit, if you can combine solid comfort AND the suit, you'll be even better off.
Was able to consistently slow down today to about 2:25 to 2:30! Should I try even slower?
It was amazing. Seemed so easy. I swam 4 sets of 400 yards and it seemed so comfortable. I didn't realize I was so pumped out swimming 1:55 to 2:05 all the time.
Feels like a new sport!
AWESOME!
I think being ABLE to swim REALLY slow and still be comfortable is a sign of balance. You don't need to practice/train at that speed, but you should be able to do it. So, i think it could be valuable from a SKILL perspective.
You should be able to swim EASY. If you're always hammering away at threshold, and you're UNABLE to slow down, it's going to be difficult to improve your ability to extend your ability to hold it. You always have to take breaks and everything becomes an intense interval workout. While you can probably get away with that to a greater extent in the water, you never see people take that approach on land.
You can and should still do the 1:55-2:05 stuff. However, you also want to work on getting the slower stuff FASTER without loosing the sense of ease. AND you want to work on extending the duration of the slower stuff WITHOUT breaks (i.e. 4x400 becomes 2x800 becomes 1x1600 over time) all while maintaining the same speed.
As you said in an earlier post, always swimming at the same speed is not a recipe for success.
Congrats on the breakthrough. Let me know how it goes, and if there is anything else I can do to help.
The short answer is if you can't swim 100 yards/meters in less than 1:20 (and your threshold speed is necessarily slower than that). Of course, this isn't a hard and fast rule and it depends on age.
If you can't achieve those speeds, your problem is a technical one, not a fitness one. All the fitness training in the world will only result in marginal improvement, whereas improving your skills can result in substantial improvements.
Andrew
Totally agree with this. If you are under ~55-60, and an active triathlete that has been doing even the bare minimum of swimming over an extended period of time (i.e. 1-2 swims per week of 1-2kms over a year or so) and can't hit a one off 1.20 for 100 yards, your issue is likely to be technique/drag.
Was able to consistently slow down today to about 2:25 to 2:30! Should I try even slower?
It was amazing. Seemed so easy. I swam 4 sets of 400 yards and it seemed so comfortable. I didn't realize I was so pumped out swimming 1:55 to 2:05 all the time.
Feels like a new sport!
AWESOME!
I think being ABLE to swim REALLY slow and still be comfortable is a sign of balance. You don't need to practice/train at that speed, but you should be able to do it. So, i think it could be valuable from a SKILL perspective.
You should be able to swim EASY. If you're always hammering away at threshold, and you're UNABLE to slow down, it's going to be difficult to improve your ability to extend your ability to hold it. You always have to take breaks and everything becomes an intense interval workout. While you can probably get away with that to a greater extent in the water, you never see people take that approach on land.
You can and should still do the 1:55-2:05 stuff. However, you also want to work on getting the slower stuff FASTER without loosing the sense of ease. AND you want to work on extending the duration of the slower stuff WITHOUT breaks (i.e. 4x400 becomes 2x800 becomes 1x1600 over time) all while maintaining the same speed.
As you said in an earlier post, always swimming at the same speed is not a recipe for success.
Congrats on the breakthrough. Let me know how it goes, and if there is anything else I can do to help.
Andrew
Thanks, Andrew. It really helped to have you support the direction the training program was sending me.
I could feel some interesting stuff happen at that slow speed. I actually felt like I was "feeling" the water as swimmers talk about. My rotation was so much better that I did a couple laps at the end bilateral breathing just to see if it felt better. Usually after a 1600 yard set there would be now way. I didn't feel great, but it worked.
I can really tell this is going to help me improve.
Funny, I can't swim sub-1:40 with my fins on, so obviously I have a lot of technique improvement before fitness catches up as a limiting factor. I'm excited to continue to improve.
It's kind of you to come on here and give free advice, I truly thank you.
Thanks, Andrew. It really helped to have you support the direction the training program was sending me.
I could feel some interesting stuff happen at that slow speed. I actually felt like I was "feeling" the water as swimmers talk about. My rotation was so much better that I did a couple laps at the end bilateral breathing just to see if it felt better. Usually after a 1600 yard set there would be now way. I didn't feel great, but it worked.
I can really tell this is going to help me improve.
Funny, I can't swim sub-1:40 with my fins on, so obviously I have a lot of technique improvement before fitness catches up as a limiting factor. I'm excited to continue to improve.
It's kind of you to come on here and give free advice, I truly thank you.
You are very welcome.
Don't be afraid to 'test' your skills with some regularity. I would do this almost every time you get in the water, if only for a small amount. You can and should do it 2 ways (just pick one each day)-
1. Go for a short distance and try to go FAST and see if you can hold it together. Something like a 50 or a 100. Does it hold up? 2. Try to a little bit longer endurance swim or set, where you push it a bit. Does it hold up?
While these are tests to see where you're at, they'll also learning experiences that will help you figure out where to focus your attention. If there is something that falls apart, that's a sign where you need to spend your attention.
It's easy to get trapped doing things 'perfectly', while never challenging your skills and fitness to get ready for a racing situation.
The transition from learning to training can be a tricky one. Shifting your mindset to one of 'practicing and testing', as well as practicing under stress (ie speed or fatigue) can be really helpful in terms of staying focused on what matters.
Thanks, Andrew. It really helped to have you support the direction the training program was sending me.
I could feel some interesting stuff happen at that slow speed. I actually felt like I was "feeling" the water as swimmers talk about. My rotation was so much better that I did a couple laps at the end bilateral breathing just to see if it felt better. Usually after a 1600 yard set there would be now way. I didn't feel great, but it worked.
I can really tell this is going to help me improve.
Funny, I can't swim sub-1:40 with my fins on, so obviously I have a lot of technique improvement before fitness catches up as a limiting factor. I'm excited to continue to improve.
It's kind of you to come on here and give free advice, I truly thank you.
You are very welcome.
Don't be afraid to 'test' your skills with some regularity. I would do this almost every time you get in the water, if only for a small amount. You can and should do it 2 ways (just pick one each day)-
1. Go for a short distance and try to go FAST and see if you can hold it together. Something like a 50 or a 100. Does it hold up? 2. Try to a little bit longer endurance swim or set, where you push it a bit. Does it hold up?
While these are tests to see where you're at, they'll also learning experiences that will help you figure out where to focus your attention. If there is something that falls apart, that's a sign where you need to spend your attention.
It's easy to get trapped doing things 'perfectly', while never challenging your skills and fitness to get ready for a racing situation.
The transition from learning to training can be a tricky one. Shifting your mindset to one of 'practicing and testing', as well as practicing under stress (ie speed or fatigue) can be really helpful in terms of staying focused on what matters.
It's an interesting challenge swimming presents.
Let me know if you have further questions.
Hope that helps.
Andrew
I use TriDot for my training plans and they kick out one fast day and one stamina day every week. This week, and going forward, I think I will continue to try and get this 3rd day in with mostly drills, technique work, and "special needs" I have as far as learning a new drill for a workout or a project I want to continue to try and correct a technique issue.
I didn't really follow the plan for much of last year, I just felt like I was doing my best to get into the pool twice a week for around an hour each time. But, I had a bad swim in my second 70.3 and realized I really need to focus on becoming at the very least a confident MOP swimmer.
I keep repeating to myself that I could possibly improve all the way down to a 1:20/100 swimmer with just technique. That seems wholly unobtainable right now, but I just would like to be able to hold a 1:45/100 for my CSS tests which are a 400 yd TT then a rest and a 200 yd TT.
I use TriDot for my training plans and they kick out one fast day and one stamina day every week. This week, and going forward, I think I will continue to try and get this 3rd day in with mostly drills, technique work, and "special needs" I have as far as learning a new drill for a workout or a project I want to continue to try and correct a technique issue.
I didn't really follow the plan for much of last year, I just felt like I was doing my best to get into the pool twice a week for around an hour each time. But, I had a bad swim in my second 70.3 and realized I really need to focus on becoming at the very least a confident MOP swimmer.
I keep repeating to myself that I could possibly improve all the way down to a 1:20/100 swimmer with just technique. That seems wholly unobtainable right now, but I just would like to be able to hold a 1:45/100 for my CSS tests which are a 400 yd TT then a rest and a 200 yd TT.
That sounds a like a great mix of different days. Just make sure you are focusing on what you are doing during the TriDot workouts.
Most people OVERestimate what is possible in the short term and UNDERestimate in the long term. Focus on the what you are doing, and aim to achieve the next short-term barrier.
One step at a time. Regardless of how hard you work and how perfect your plan is, it will still take TIME. A lesson we all know, yet we all always seem to forget!
So you can see that the longer the distance, the greater the discrepancy – percentagewise.
I’m nearly 60. I’ve been swimming nearly 3 years. I’ve been trying to do FT for 9 months.
I breathe right before turning. And after push-off I’m quite eager to get a breath. But the time it takes to FT just kills me, cardio-wise.
I dunno – is it possible that SOS (Senior Onset Swimmers) like me might never be able to rewire the cardio system so that FT really is faster, as it should be?
Thanks for any insight you might have. I only swim. I used to run. (31:09 10k) I never did Triathlon. Sue me.
So you can see that the longer the distance, the greater the discrepancy – percentagewise.
I’m nearly 60. I’ve been swimming nearly 3 years. I’ve been trying to do FT for 9 months.
I breathe right before turning. And after push-off I’m quite eager to get a breath. But the time it takes to FT just kills me, cardio-wise.
I dunno – is it possible that SOS (Senior Onset Swimmers) like me might never be able to rewire the cardio system so that FT really is faster, as it should be?
Thanks for any insight you might have.
My pleasure.
Question- Why do you care if you're doing flip turns? Seriously. If your main goals are open water, I'm not sure it matters at all. It's a skill that you'll never use and it's potentially making your swimming more difficult by creating an oxygen deficit that you'd never experience in an open water situation.
Now, if you want to successfully perform flip turns because you want to, and it's a skill that you want to master, that cool, too. That's a great reason. Just understand that it's not the same goal as improving your swimming for open water.
I don't think there is a trick. I think it is a training issue. Here is the approach I would take- slow down. When swimming with flip turns, swim slower. Give your body a chance to handle it versus always being in survival mode. Once you get used to performing flip turns withOUT feeling like you're dying for air over longer distances, THEN start speeding it up a bit. It's the same concept as any endurance training. If you go all out all the time, you'll improve a little bit at first, then you won't.
In competitive swimming, you see the same issue. Swimmers are often working on extending their dolphin kicks off the wall, which creates a similar effect- more time without air. The solution is to slow down get used to doing it slow, then speed it up. It takes time.
The first goal is to be able to consistently perform flip turns without feeling like it's an added stress. You'll have to slow down to do this. Then start speeding it up, sometimes working in the struggle zone/sometimes working in the comfort zone. This will take time, but you'll get there eventually.
If you have a video, let me know and I can take a look. It's possible you're taking way too long underwater. However, I can't know until I see it.
Also - I'm not a triathlete. (Don't tell anyone.) I'm just an ex-runner swimmer who wants to get better in the pool. I only swim. I used to run. (31:09 10k) I never did Triathlon. Sue me.
So you can see that the longer the distance, the greater the discrepancy – percentagewise.
I’m nearly 60. I’ve been swimming nearly 3 years. I’ve been trying to do FT for 9 months.
I breathe right before turning. And after push-off I’m quite eager to get a breath. But the time it takes to FT just kills me, cardio-wise.
I dunno – is it possible that SOS (Senior Onset Swimmers) like me might never be able to rewire the cardio system so that FT really is faster, as it should be?
Thanks for any insight you might have.
My pleasure.
Question- Why do you care if you're doing flip turns? Seriously. If your main goals are open water, I'm not sure it matters at all. It's a skill that you'll never use and it's potentially making your swimming more difficult by creating an oxygen deficit that you'd never experience in an open water situation.
Now, if you want to successfully perform flip turns because you want to, and it's a skill that you want to master, that cool, too. That's a great reason. Just understand that it's not the same goal as improving your swimming for open water.
On the same topic of faster vs slower in the pool. Thoughts on a swimmer who is slower with a pull buoy and paddles (or equal) compared to just normal swimming at the same effort?
Can you speak to “pausing†in a stroke? I’ve been focusing on always having pressure on one of my arms at all times (I.e. when one arm is recovering the other is engaging the catch). I’ve been trying to increase my stroke rate which has a tendency to eliminate a “dead†spot where I would previously try to just glide through the water.
When I am focused on eliminating the dead spot, I feel smooth and I feel like I maintain a consistent depth/speed in the water. When I get tired, the dead spot reappears and I tend to constantly be in a seesaw of either accelerating or decelerating.
Am I right in thinking that there shouldn’t be a “dead†spot and I should always have some sort of “tension†on the water moving me forward? @floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
So you can see that the longer the distance, the greater the discrepancy – percentagewise.
I’m nearly 60. I’ve been swimming nearly 3 years. I’ve been trying to do FT for 9 months.
I breathe right before turning. And after push-off I’m quite eager to get a breath. But the time it takes to FT just kills me, cardio-wise.
I dunno – is it possible that SOS (Senior Onset Swimmers) like me might never be able to rewire the cardio system so that FT really is faster, as it should be?
Thanks for any insight you might have.
My pleasure.
Question- Why do you care if you're doing flip turns? Seriously. If your main goals are open water, I'm not sure it matters at all. It's a skill that you'll never use and it's potentially making your swimming more difficult by creating an oxygen deficit that you'd never experience in an open water situation.
Now, if you want to successfully perform flip turns because you want to, and it's a skill that you want to master, that cool, too. That's a great reason. Just understand that it's not the same goal as improving your swimming for open water.
Andrew
THIS ^^^^^^
For all that is holy
THANK YOU !!!!
I greatly disagree with this aspect of ignoring flip turns as a non-expert triathlon swimmer.
Flip turns are immensely useful for getting accustomed to oxygen deprivation at effort, keeping a continuous flow of swim effort, small benefits in streamlining, and most importantly, not allowing you to cheat rest at the wall.
The cheat rest at the wall is a big deal. Even if you spend 0.5 sec extra on an open turn compared to a flip on each wall, that's 2 seconds/100 of extra rest you are getting compared to had you done it as a flip. And we all know that as you get more tired, the slower that 0.5sec is going to get.
The flip turn keeps you honest in your efforts, and in my experience, makes the pool effort closer to the continuous effort of OWS. Every time I go to a triathlete-group swim workout, I'm utterly horrified by the fact that up to half of the folks there not only don't flip turn, but clearly take gobs of extra rest on each open turn as the workout progresses.
I think it's crucially important for not-great AG triathlete swimmers to force themselves to learn to flip turn, for these specific reasons. No cheat rests and better oxygen-deprivation resistance (without being dangerous like prolonged underwater swimming.)
If you're a FFOP AG swimmers, you can do whatever the heck you want - you're already fast. But if you're not quite up there yet, this is one of the easiest and best ways to instantly improve your swimming, both pool and OWS.
I have some questions about head position when swimming freestyle. Last night at swim club I was experimenting and found that when I use "correct" head position (looking straight down at the bottom of the pool) my 4 x 100 repeats (pushing off on 2:00) were 1:40-1:42 (scm). When I raised my head and looked forward, at a point on the bottom of the pool about 10 metres ahead of me, my 4 x 100 repeats at the same effort level, on the same interval were 1:33-1:35. I did the "head down" repeats first, so I was actually more tired when I was looking forward. Do you have swimmers who have had the same experience? Do you coach all your swimmers to look directly down, or do some of them look slightly forward? Is this something that is variable? Does head position even matter, as long as the swimmer is comfortable?
I felt as though my body position was way better when I looked forward, and that when I was looking down I felt like I was dragging a hippo behind me. Also, I was thinking about a comment I read on this forum about preservation of angular momentum meaning that if you drop your head, your legs also drop, and thinking maybe that was the reason. I was making a conscious effort to press on my lungs, but I was doing that for all the 100s.
I use TriDot for my training plans and they kick out one fast day and one stamina day every week. This week, and going forward, I think I will continue to try and get this 3rd day in with mostly drills, technique work, and "special needs" I have as far as learning a new drill for a workout or a project I want to continue to try and correct a technique issue.
I didn't really follow the plan for much of last year, I just felt like I was doing my best to get into the pool twice a week for around an hour each time. But, I had a bad swim in my second 70.3 and realized I really need to focus on becoming at the very least a confident MOP swimmer.
I keep repeating to myself that I could possibly improve all the way down to a 1:20/100 swimmer with just technique. That seems wholly unobtainable right now, but I just would like to be able to hold a 1:45/100 for my CSS tests which are a 400 yd TT then a rest and a 200 yd TT.
That sounds a like a great mix of different days. Just make sure you are focusing on what you are doing during the TriDot workouts.
Most people OVERestimate what is possible in the short term and UNDERestimate in the long term. Focus on the what you are doing, and aim to achieve the next short-term barrier.
One step at a time. Regardless of how hard you work and how perfect your plan is, it will still take TIME. A lesson we all know, yet we all always seem to forget!
Hope that helps.
Andrew
I have assessments this week and I FEEL faster. So, we'll see.I successfully did the TriDot workout for the first time last Monday and it felt great. I think the extra day in the pool each week is helping tremendously. I never feel unfamiliar when I hit the water because I'm never out of the pool longer than two days which is nice.
Great advice. I would be happy with some small incremental gains. Eventually I would love to see my swim on par with my bike and run, but that could be 3 or 4 years down the road. The frustrating thing previously before I realized to just focus on technique was that no amount of fitness made me faster it seemed. I could just swim slowly for longer. This time I think I can average 1:35 to 1:50 for the 200 and that will feel like a huge win. If I can have reasonable expectations for the 400 I think I can crush the 200.
I have some questions about head position when swimming freestyle. Last night at swim club I was experimenting and found that when I use "correct" head position (looking straight down at the bottom of the pool) my 4 x 100 repeats (pushing off on 2:00) were 1:40-1:42 (scm). When I raised my head and looked forward, at a point on the bottom of the pool about 10 metres ahead of me, my 4 x 100 repeats at the same effort level, on the same interval were 1:33-1:35. I did the "head down" repeats first, so I was actually more tired when I was looking forward. Do you have swimmers who have had the same experience? Do you coach all your swimmers to look directly down, or do some of them look slightly forward? Is this something that is variable? Does head position even matter, as long as the swimmer is comfortable?
I felt as though my body position was way better when I looked forward, and that when I was looking down I felt like I was dragging a hippo behind me. Also, I was thinking about a comment I read on this forum about preservation of angular momentum meaning that if you drop your head, your legs also drop, and thinking maybe that was the reason. I was making a conscious effort to press on my lungs, but I was doing that for all the 100s.
I'm always amazed when I hear these "I changed one thing after years and years of swimming and suddenly dropped 10sec/100".
Seriously - didn't you experiment with small and large changes technique over those years you've been swimming?
I just find it almost unbelievable that someone who's been swimming for years (I'm assuming you have been - but you can correct me if I'm wrong!) and have done more than a few triathlon races, is still finding a small changes that magically gives them 10sec/100.
In your case, I'm trying to not be mean here, but it sounds too good to be true. Unless you're swimming literally head-out-of-water and then putting your head in the correct place, I can't imagine something like that giving you 10sec/100. Part of my sighting practice in the pool which i do before races are exaggerated sighted 100s in the pool where I pop my head completely out of the water every 2 breaths for practicing for choppy conditions where a minimalist sight just won't cut it, and even with that obscene amount of popping my entire head out of the water like I'm looking over a wave, I don't lose 10sec/100.
I'm not even a good swimmer but I would kill for a real technical improvement that gave me a legit 1sec/100 for the same effort!
Thing is, it's not "I gained 7 seconds per 100", it's that I figured out one of the things that was costing me 7 seconds / 100 m. Over the last 10 years or so I have been able to get myself to where I can swim 100 (scm) repeats between 1:27 and 1:35, depending on how fit I am, but occasionally I seem to pick up a bad habit and I start to struggle along at 1:40-1:45. On days like that, no amount of extra effort seems to make me go any faster, there's always a technical fix. My point with my question was that it seemed as though it was head position that changed things. And it changed them by 7 seconds per 100m, you can believe that or not, it is up to you, but I really have no reason to make stuff up. The part I found curious was that the "correct" head position (eyes looking at the bottom of the pool) was slower for me than when I angled my head and looked slightly forward. I'm interested to know what the swim coach thinks about head position and angle.
Thing is, it's not "I gained 7 seconds per 100", it's that I figured out one of the things that was costing me 7 seconds / 100 m. Over the last 10 years or so I have been able to get myself to where I can swim 100 (scm) repeats between 1:27 and 1:35, depending on how fit I am, but occasionally I seem to pick up a bad habit and I start to struggle along at 1:40-1:45. On days like that, no amount of extra effort seems to make me go any faster, there's always a technical fix. My point with my question was that it seemed as though it was head position that changed things. And it changed them by 7 seconds per 100m, you can believe that or not, it is up to you, but I really have no reason to make stuff up. The part I found curious was that the "correct" head position (eyes looking at the bottom of the pool) was slower for me than when I angled my head and looked slightly forward. I'm interested to know what the swim coach thinks about head position and angle.
Costing you time vs gaining you time, pretty much the same thing given 2 efforts on the same day.
If your head position is causing +/- 7 sec of drag, that's a massive number. I still find that number kinda unbelievable, for the reasons I mentioned above regarding what happens when I'm popping my head out of the water, but crazier things have happened!
At the same time, if it works for you, why wouldn't you go with the technical change that gives you such a massive improvement in your 100 time compared to the other head position?
So you can see that the longer the distance, the greater the discrepancy – percentagewise.
I’m nearly 60. I’ve been swimming nearly 3 years. I’ve been trying to do FT for 9 months.
I breathe right before turning. And after push-off I’m quite eager to get a breath. But the time it takes to FT just kills me, cardio-wise.
I dunno – is it possible that SOS (Senior Onset Swimmers) like me might never be able to rewire the cardio system so that FT really is faster, as it should be?
Thanks for any insight you might have.
My pleasure.
Question- Why do you care if you're doing flip turns? Seriously. If your main goals are open water, I'm not sure it matters at all. It's a skill that you'll never use and it's potentially making your swimming more difficult by creating an oxygen deficit that you'd never experience in an open water situation.
Now, if you want to successfully perform flip turns because you want to, and it's a skill that you want to master, that cool, too. That's a great reason. Just understand that it's not the same goal as improving your swimming for open water.
Andrew
THIS ^^^^^^
For all that is holy
THANK YOU !!!!
I greatly disagree with this aspect of ignoring flip turns as a non-expert triathlon swimmer.
Flip turns are immensely useful for getting accustomed to oxygen deprivation at effort, keeping a continuous flow of swim effort, small benefits in streamlining, and most importantly, not allowing you to cheat rest at the wall.
The cheat rest at the wall is a big deal. Even if you spend 0.5 sec extra on an open turn compared to a flip on each wall, that's 2 seconds/100 of extra rest you are getting compared to had you done it as a flip. And we all know that as you get more tired, the slower that 0.5sec is going to get.
The flip turn keeps you honest in your efforts, and in my experience, makes the pool effort closer to the continuous effort of OWS. Every time I go to a triathlete-group swim workout, I'm utterly horrified by the fact that up to half of the folks there not only don't flip turn, but clearly take gobs of extra rest on each open turn as the workout progresses.
I think it's crucially important for not-great AG triathlete swimmers to force themselves to learn to flip turn, for these specific reasons. No cheat rests and better oxygen-deprivation resistance (without being dangerous like prolonged underwater swimming.)
If you're a FFOP AG swimmers, you can do whatever the heck you want - you're already fast. But if you're not quite up there yet, this is one of the easiest and best ways to instantly improve your swimming, both pool and OWS.
I am fairly sure that the head position is not the only factor accounting for the 7s/100 discrepancy. I would imagine it precipitates a cascade of problems, perhaps when my eyes are looking down at the bottom of the pool I crossover on my pull and then my hips wiggle. When my eyes were looking forward, my body position definitely felt better and my stroke felt tighter, so obviously that it what I am sticking with. I am just curious as to whether the swim coach has all his swimmers look at the bottom of the pool (which is the correct technique, as I understand it) or if he has more variability.
Also, my swim times vary quite a lot on a weekly basis. I have been swimming with a masters swim club for seven years or so and in that time I can have "good days" when I'll be right around 1:30/100m pace and I'll have "crap days" when I am around 1:40/100m. On the crap days, it doesn't matter how much harder I try, I cannot go faster, so when I have a day like that I know I have picked up a technical glitch and then it becomes a mission to try to identify which of the hundreds of possible technical flaws is responsible. I just found it strange that the "flaw" that seemed to be slowing me down was a head position that seems to be generally regarded as "correct technique".
Also - I'm not a triathlete. (Don't tell anyone.) I'm just an ex-runner swimmer who wants to get better in the pool.
My pleasure.
If that's the case, I would definitely suggest you continue to work on improving your turns. Dial back the intensity so you can control your breathing for a portion of your swimming, then start ramping it back.
Just like anything, you'll adapt given enough work balanced with the required recovery.
On the same topic of faster vs slower in the pool. Thoughts on a swimmer who is slower with a pull buoy and paddles (or equal) compared to just normal swimming at the same effort?
What could be potential causes? fixes for those?
It could be several different issues. It could be technical, it could be physical, or it could just be the way you are. Some people are just better at different components of the sport.
Getting more specific...
Causes-
1. Individuals that swim with low stroke rates tend to see more of a drop-off when adding pulling gear. With slower stroke rates, there is a little more space between strokes, which becomes more obvious when the legs aren't there to fill in the gaps. If the slow stroke rate is the result of timing/technical issues, it can be even worse.
2. Individuals that don't have a lot of upper body strength, or swim specific upper body fitness, will struggle. They can use their legs to get through the weak spots. They get exposed.
3. Individuals that have really long arms tend to struggle. It's simply harder for them. The good news is that long levers can create a lot of speed once you have the strength to control them.
4. Individuals that are very good kickers. Take a way the legs, take a way the speed.
5. There could be a technical issue that is made worse by pulling. It could be a timing issue, a body position issue, or an arm action issue
Solutions (numbers relate to causes)-
1. I'm not sure I would actively change this, unless you have a VERY low stroke rate. Changing your basic rhythm can be risky as you may be working against the your body's natural tendencies. It may be helpful to consciously pick up your tempo a bit when pulling. The ability to sustain that tempo will take time develop (see 2). If you are gliding unnecessarily, avoid doing so. Pulling will expose this.
The difference between a naturally lower stroke rate and a stroke rate that is unnaturally low due to technical issues is something that needs to be assessed with video. If it's unnatural, it needs to be fixed.
2. Get stronger out of the water- basic land work. Get stronger in the water by pulling. There are two ways to do so and both can be used. First is simply pull more. Doing more pulling with help in and of itself. The second approach is to use shorter distances and focus on the quality/intensity of your pulling, just like strength training. If you notice the stroke rate is lower, focus on keeping the rate up for short distances. If you notice your stroke counts are much higher, focus on keeping the strokes long and power with a lower stroke count for short distances.
You may intuitively know if you'll be benefit from a shorter or longer approach, or both. Give it a shot.
3. Not much you can change. You'll just have to work more to get stronger to manage the longer lever.
4. Again, just is what it is. It's an explanation, not something you can do much about.
5. If this is the case, you need to address it. It's hard to know what it could be without seeing it.
REMEMBER- with all of this, pulling is a MEANS to an end, and NOT the end in and of itself. It is a TOOL that can be used to help you improve your swimming, but it is not the goal. If you are improving your swimming, but not your pulling, it might not be something to worry about. However, improving your pulling CAN improve your swimming. At the same time, you may find that improving your pulling does NOT improve your
I am not saying that this will happen. I am just cautioning you or anyone reading this that the goal is to improve your swimming, and improving your pulling must support that goal, not replace it. The same goes for ANY supportive training.
Can you speak to “pausing†in a stroke? I’ve been focusing on always having pressure on one of my arms at all times (I.e. when one arm is recovering the other is engaging the catch). I’ve been trying to increase my stroke rate which has a tendency to eliminate a “dead†spot where I would previously try to just glide through the water.
When I am focused on eliminating the dead spot, I feel smooth and I feel like I maintain a consistent depth/speed in the water. When I get tired, the dead spot reappears and I tend to constantly be in a seesaw of either accelerating or decelerating.
Am I right in thinking that there shouldn’t be a “dead†spot and I should always have some sort of “tension†on the water moving me forward?
I would tend to agree with what you're aiming to accomplish. You don't want to be gliding out in front much, and a catch-up type stroke is not going to be effective for most individuals. The exception is when you have a very streamlined position, an excellent arm action, AND a great kick. There are few people that can swim like this, even among successful swimmers.
You definitely want to develop a sense of continual motion, NOT stop and go. It's about establishing a consistent rhythm. As you're finding, that can be something that falls apart pretty quickly with fatigue.
A good way to think about it is to keep the shoulders moving, and the arms tend to go along for the ride. Trying to increase your tempo likely has a similar impact, but this thought process might have a more direct impact. An exercise I really like for this is linked below. If forces you to keep one arm engaged with the water while the other is recovering.
You've developed an ability to eliminate the dead spot, and you can feel when you lose it. That's good. The key is to train right up to the point where you lose it, rest, and do it again. And again. You'll be able to hold it longer over time. That's training!
The below video is what I do (as an adult onset swimmer) and think about all the time: use my back/hip/leg muscles to keep my legs up at the surface. Takes very little energy, and I really believe that this is what good swimmers do whether they realize it. And I swim with a very high head position, due to shoulder issues that prevent me from extending my arms directly overhead with a straight back (picture me in a "cup" position with my lower abdomen being the lowest part of my body).
Thoughts?
In trying to understand the muscle engagement, would this be similar to doing a shallow "plank" style effort on dry land, in which you slightly lift the legs off the ground? Would that be a good way to feel that muscle engagement (with the understanding that the water will aid in buoyancy)?
Exactly that. Lie on the ground on your stomach, stretch your arms in front of you ("superman"), and lift your straightened legs. It is hard on land, but easy in the water. Feel those muscles, as they are what you engage. You got it.
Superman's a mainstay in my swim training - my own and those I work with. For me, it's also been a good way to introduce kick ... if you bicycle, your knees hit the ground. Kick nice and easy from the hips, not large ... it works.
OP, I've really enjoyed your answers. Thanks to everyone for being willing to submit questions. Yanti Ardie of Y Tri Multisport & Majick Juice for lasting critter defense & skin soothing ~ World Open Water Swimming Association Coach & Official ~ IRONMAN Certified Coach (Founding Member) ~ Triathlon Australia Professional Development Coach ~ 3 by the Sea: my Journey from death to ...
I have some questions about head position when swimming freestyle. Last night at swim club I was experimenting and found that when I use "correct" head position (looking straight down at the bottom of the pool) my 4 x 100 repeats (pushing off on 2:00) were 1:40-1:42 (scm). When I raised my head and looked forward, at a point on the bottom of the pool about 10 metres ahead of me, my 4 x 100 repeats at the same effort level, on the same interval were 1:33-1:35. I did the "head down" repeats first, so I was actually more tired when I was looking forward. Do you have swimmers who have had the same experience? Do you coach all your swimmers to look directly down, or do some of them look slightly forward? Is this something that is variable? Does head position even matter, as long as the swimmer is comfortable?
I felt as though my body position was way better when I looked forward, and that when I was looking down I felt like I was dragging a hippo behind me. Also, I was thinking about a comment I read on this forum about preservation of angular momentum meaning that if you drop your head, your legs also drop, and thinking maybe that was the reason. I was making a conscious effort to press on my lungs, but I was doing that for all the 100s.
I'm always amazed when I hear these "I changed one thing after years and years of swimming and suddenly dropped 10sec/100".
Seriously - didn't you experiment with small and large changes technique over those years you've been swimming?
I just find it almost unbelievable that someone who's been swimming for years (I'm assuming you have been - but you can correct me if I'm wrong!) and have done more than a few triathlon races, is still finding a small changes that magically gives them 10sec/100.
In your case, I'm trying to not be mean here, but it sounds too good to be true. Unless you're swimming literally head-out-of-water and then putting your head in the correct place, I can't imagine something like that giving you 10sec/100. Part of my sighting practice in the pool which i do before races are exaggerated sighted 100s in the pool where I pop my head completely out of the water every 2 breaths for practicing for choppy conditions where a minimalist sight just won't cut it, and even with that obscene amount of popping my entire head out of the water like I'm looking over a wave, I don't lose 10sec/100.
I'm not even a good swimmer but I would kill for a real technical improvement that gave me a legit 1sec/100 for the same effort!
I'm not sure about something like holding your head at a slightly different angle causing that big of a difference, but I have found at times that these improvements can happen in spurts.
It's just rarely one thing, more like a chain of things then the last part of that chain brings it all together. I asked a question about why I pull so slowly in another thread. One theory regarding my technique was true, but in struggling to fix it I slowly figured out a chain of causes. I focused on the adjustments and dropped 5 seconds/100 on the set I've been using as I track progress in my swimming over the course of about two weeks. I went slower for a while, then suddenly a good bit faster, it can happen.
I have some questions about head position when swimming freestyle. Last night at swim club I was experimenting and found that when I use "correct" head position (looking straight down at the bottom of the pool) my 4 x 100 repeats (pushing off on 2:00) were 1:40-1:42 (scm). When I raised my head and looked forward, at a point on the bottom of the pool about 10 metres ahead of me, my 4 x 100 repeats at the same effort level, on the same interval were 1:33-1:35. I did the "head down" repeats first, so I was actually more tired when I was looking forward. Do you have swimmers who have had the same experience? Do you coach all your swimmers to look directly down, or do some of them look slightly forward? Is this something that is variable? Does head position even matter, as long as the swimmer is comfortable?
I felt as though my body position was way better when I looked forward, and that when I was looking down I felt like I was dragging a hippo behind me. Also, I was thinking about a comment I read on this forum about preservation of angular momentum meaning that if you drop your head, your legs also drop, and thinking maybe that was the reason. I was making a conscious effort to press on my lungs, but I was doing that for all the 100s.
I'm always amazed when I hear these "I changed one thing after years and years of swimming and suddenly dropped 10sec/100".
Seriously - didn't you experiment with small and large changes technique over those years you've been swimming?
I just find it almost unbelievable that someone who's been swimming for years (I'm assuming you have been - but you can correct me if I'm wrong!) and have done more than a few triathlon races, is still finding a small changes that magically gives them 10sec/100.
In your case, I'm trying to not be mean here, but it sounds too good to be true. Unless you're swimming literally head-out-of-water and then putting your head in the correct place, I can't imagine something like that giving you 10sec/100. Part of my sighting practice in the pool which i do before races are exaggerated sighted 100s in the pool where I pop my head completely out of the water every 2 breaths for practicing for choppy conditions where a minimalist sight just won't cut it, and even with that obscene amount of popping my entire head out of the water like I'm looking over a wave, I don't lose 10sec/100.
I'm not even a good swimmer but I would kill for a real technical improvement that gave me a legit 1sec/100 for the same effort!
There's a great line in Game of Thrones: "everything before the 'but' is horseshit". But I digress.
The poster indicated that *raising* his head gave him more speed. Certainly worked for me.
After swimming for a couple of decades, I focused on straightening out my pull and gained a couple of seconds per hundred at the same effort. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
A couple seconds per 100 after years of swim practice is totally different than an instant real 10sec, or even 5sec per 100 gain from one small adjustment in head position.
When I hear of results like that in intermediate swimmers with already-plateaud ability, I'll almost guarantee that they try it again next week and it'll back to where it was before.
Gaining a true 10sec/100 is literally a different class of swimmer once you're faster than 1:45/100. But briefly gaining 7-10sec/100 because you got more rest, or were more motivated, or the interval was shorter, is common - albeit transient.
I greatly disagree with this aspect of ignoring flip turns as a non-expert triathlon swimmer.
Flip turns are immensely useful for getting accustomed to oxygen deprivation at effort, keeping a continuous flow of swim effort, small benefits in streamlining, and most importantly, not allowing you to cheat rest at the wall.
The cheat rest at the wall is a big deal. Even if you spend 0.5 sec extra on an open turn compared to a flip on each wall, that's 2 seconds/100 of extra rest you are getting compared to had you done it as a flip. And we all know that as you get more tired, the slower that 0.5sec is going to get.
The flip turn keeps you honest in your efforts, and in my experience, makes the pool effort closer to the continuous effort of OWS. Every time I go to a triathlete-group swim workout, I'm utterly horrified by the fact that up to half of the folks there not only don't flip turn, but clearly take gobs of extra rest on each open turn as the workout progresses.
I think it's crucially important for not-great AG triathlete swimmers to force themselves to learn to flip turn, for these specific reasons. No cheat rests and better oxygen-deprivation resistance (without being dangerous like prolonged underwater swimming.)
If you're a FFOP AG swimmers, you can do whatever the heck you want - you're already fast. But if you're not quite up there yet, this is one of the easiest and best ways to instantly improve your swimming, both pool and OWS.
For many/all of the reasons you have stated, I would agree that most individuals SHOULD take the time to learn how to perform a flip turn, as well as develop the fitness to execute them at a range of training efforts.
However, they don't HAVE to. In all sports training, the only activities that must be performed in training are those that take place in competition. For open water swimmers of any sort, flip turns do not meet this criteria.
That's not to say that flip turns don't have utility. They do as you have described. At the same time, if someone can't, won't, doesn't want to learn flip turns, or finds using flip turns to be causing a lot of problems, they can still continue to make progress with their swimming without them, and enjoy the process.
A couple seconds per 100 after years of swim practice is totally different than an instant real 10sec, or even 5sec per 100 gain from one small adjustment in head position.
When I hear of results like that in intermediate swimmers with already-plateaud ability, I'll almost guarantee that they try it again next week and it'll back to where it was before.
Gaining a true 10sec/100 is literally a different class of swimmer once you're faster than 1:45/100. But briefly gaining 7-10sec/100 because you got more rest, or were more motivated, or the interval was shorter, is common - albeit transient.
I’ll try again… What I described was not a “gain†of 7 s/100, rather a speed differential within my already long-established range of speeds. The speed difference was during the same workout, on the same day, on the same interval, with the same level of motivation, in fact everything (as far as I could tell) was the same except for an adjustment in head position. If the poster who mentioned conservation of angular momentum is correct, then the head down position may have caused me to hinge at the waist, which would explain the sensation of dragging a hippo down the pool.
I would just like to know what the swim coach thinks about head position in freestyle.
I'm not disagreeing with what you perceived as a 7sec differential.
I'm just saying I'll be really, really surprised if it ends up being a durable gain. I think it's far more likely a subjective difference in effort that's giving these types of results, even if you feel it's identical.
Of course, if you're suddenly swimming Olys and HIMs 2-3 minutes faster tomorrow, with no extra training I'll buy it!
Could you let me know what your thoughts are regarding head position in freestyle? Do you advocate “eyes down†or do you have more variation in your swimmers, with some looking more forward? I am personally finding the eyes down position is slowing me down and am wondering whether to try “pushing through†in hopes of longer term gains, or to stick with the head position that seems to be faster for me at the moment.
I have some questions about head position when swimming freestyle. Last night at swim club I was experimenting and found that when I use "correct" head position (looking straight down at the bottom of the pool) my 4 x 100 repeats (pushing off on 2:00) were 1:40-1:42 (scm). When I raised my head and looked forward, at a point on the bottom of the pool about 10 metres ahead of me, my 4 x 100 repeats at the same effort level, on the same interval were 1:33-1:35. I did the "head down" repeats first, so I was actually more tired when I was looking forward. Do you have swimmers who have had the same experience? Do you coach all your swimmers to look directly down, or do some of them look slightly forward? Is this something that is variable? Does head position even matter, as long as the swimmer is comfortable?
I felt as though my body position was way better when I looked forward, and that when I was looking down I felt like I was dragging a hippo behind me. Also, I was thinking about a comment I read on this forum about preservation of angular momentum meaning that if you drop your head, your legs also drop, and thinking maybe that was the reason. I was making a conscious effort to press on my lungs, but I was doing that for all the 100s.
While it's hard to know exactly what's going on without seeing it, here are some thoughts-
The chest TENDS to follow the head which tends to follow the eyes. The general advice is to look down, which tends to keep the head down, which tends to keep the chest down, which keep the hips up. Where you look is much less of an issue in and of itself. It's that when people look forward they tend to do other things that can cause problems. There are some very successful swimmers that look forward. However, they don't necessarily have a high head position. They're simply looking forward.
Earlier someone mentioned that they finally discovered how to 'swim downhill'. You can absolutely achieve this while looking forward.
'High' and 'low' are also relative. What you think is 'high' could be 'normal' and what feels 'low' to you is actually way too deep. Hard to know without seeing it. You can absolutely have the head too low. it's definitely possible to overdo it and it will feel like you're blowing through the water. Having the head too low will also keep the shoulders really low and that can negatively impact how you recover the arms and how you set the arm pulls, particularly if you have limited shoulder range of motion
Do you coach all your swimmers to look directly down, or do some of them look slightly forward?
I rarely tell them where to look. I only will intervene if the head is really high AND the hips are really low. I give them activities to help figure out what works for them (see below), and when there is an obvious issue, intervene more directly.
Is this something that is variable?
Yes. We all have different bones length and densities, distribution of muscle and fat, etc. As a result, where you end up will be different.
Does head position even matter, as long as the swimmer is comfortable?
It matters in the sense that it can affect what happens to YOU. So there is not necessarily a perfect position, but how you orient the top half of your torso can influence what happens with your hips and legs. The absolute position doesn't necessarily matter. What matters is how it affects the rest of the body. If the swimmer is comfortable and the hips and legs are up, that's what the bigger goal is.
For all of the reasons above, I like exercises like the Elevator Swim I posted earlier. It helps individuals find the head/body position that feels/works best for THEM. By exploring the full spectrum, they get a sense of the possibilities.
Beyond all that, if you are experiencing that dramatic of change, that should be all the evidence you need. Do what works for YOU, particularly if the outcomes are consistent. That is one reason why I advocate that people keep track of their times and their stroke counts. They can see change, and when they stumble upon something that works or doesn't work, they KNOW. If you hadn't been aware of your times, you may have continued with what was 'right' while getting worse!
I have assessments this week and I FEEL faster. So, we'll see.I successfully did the TriDot workout for the first time last Monday and it felt great. I think the extra day in the pool each week is helping tremendously. I never feel unfamiliar when I hit the water because I'm never out of the pool longer than two days which is nice.
Great advice. I would be happy with some small incremental gains. Eventually I would love to see my swim on par with my bike and run, but that could be 3 or 4 years down the road. The frustrating thing previously before I realized to just focus on technique was that no amount of fitness made me faster it seemed. I could just swim slowly for longer. This time I think I can average 1:35 to 1:50 for the 200 and that will feel like a huge win. If I can have reasonable expectations for the 400 I think I can crush the 200.
Swimming more often will always help. The water is foreign environment with different 'rules' as to how you move. The more often you can get in the water, the better. This is true even if the total volume/time for the week is similar.
One day at a time! Get little wins and will eventually add up to something big.
I'm always amazed when I hear these "I changed one thing after years and years of swimming and suddenly dropped 10sec/100".
Seriously - didn't you experiment with small and large changes technique over those years you've been swimming?
I just find it almost unbelievable that someone who's been swimming for years (I'm assuming you have been - but you can correct me if I'm wrong!) and have done more than a few triathlon races, is still finding a small changes that magically gives them 10sec/100.
In your case, I'm trying to not be mean here, but it sounds too good to be true. Unless you're swimming literally head-out-of-water and then putting your head in the correct place, I can't imagine something like that giving you 10sec/100. Part of my sighting practice in the pool which i do before races are exaggerated sighted 100s in the pool where I pop my head completely out of the water every 2 breaths for practicing for choppy conditions where a minimalist sight just won't cut it, and even with that obscene amount of popping my entire head out of the water like I'm looking over a wave, I don't lose 10sec/100.
I'm not even a good swimmer but I would kill for a real technical improvement that gave me a legit 1sec/100 for the same effort!
You raise an important point. Improvement through technical change is usually the accumulation of a lot of small changes that add up over time.
I am fairly sure that the head position is not the only factor accounting for the 7s/100 discrepancy. I would imagine it precipitates a cascade of problems, perhaps when my eyes are looking down at the bottom of the pool I crossover on my pull and then my hips wiggle. When my eyes were looking forward, my body position definitely felt better and my stroke felt tighter, so obviously that it what I am sticking with. I am just curious as to whether the swim coach has all his swimmers look at the bottom of the pool (which is the correct technique, as I understand it) or if he has more variability.
Also, my swim times vary quite a lot on a weekly basis. I have been swimming with a masters swim club for seven years or so and in that time I can have "good days" when I'll be right around 1:30/100m pace and I'll have "crap days" when I am around 1:40/100m. On the crap days, it doesn't matter how much harder I try, I cannot go faster, so when I have a day like that I know I have picked up a technical glitch and then it becomes a mission to try to identify which of the hundreds of possible technical flaws is responsible. I just found it strange that the "flaw" that seemed to be slowing me down was a head position that seems to be generally regarded as "correct technique".
One skill I work a lot with people on is 'turning around bad days'. As you said, something is usually 'off' or they're particularly fatigued. It is very much a skill to be able to reduce the discrepancy between the 'good' and 'bad' days.
One of the keys is to start to identify the critical skills that help you get back on track, then have the discipline to stay fo
Where you look may very well be one of those things for you. As you said, certain skills can have cascading effects. It's important to know what those skills are for YOU. If someone has 3-4 tricks that they can reliably go to and make work for them, they're much more likely to be able turn around bad days.
The more often and the more dramatically you can turn around bad days, the higher your average level of training will be. The higher the average level of training, the faster you'll improve.
3 key mindsets for managing 'bad practices'-
1. ONE repetition at a time. 2. Get SLIGHTLY better 3. ANY progress is a win. If you start at 1:40 and get to 1:38, that's better than going 1:40 the whole time.
Repeat until you're back on track. It takes time to develop the skill. However, I have seen it enough times to know it's possible.
I'm not sure about something like holding your head at a slightly different angle causing that big of a difference, but I have found at times that these improvements can happen in spurts.
It's just rarely one thing, more like a chain of things then the last part of that chain brings it all together. I asked a question about why I pull so slowly in another thread. One theory regarding my technique was true, but in struggling to fix it I slowly figured out a chain of causes. I focused on the adjustments and dropped 5 seconds/100 on the set I've been using as I track progress in my swimming over the course of about two weeks. I went slower for a while, then suddenly a good bit faster, it can happen.
Agree. I would say that it more often happens in spurts. You work on a skill for a while. You're learning, but it's not really clicking. 'Figuring out the chain' is a good way of putting it. You're discovering the nuance, then it clicks, and there can be a breakthrough that results in significant progress.
That's usually how skill changes work, not the instant improvement that I feel most people expect to happen.
Superman's a mainstay in my swim training - my own and those I work with. For me, it's also been a good way to introduce kick ... if you bicycle, your knees hit the ground. Kick nice and easy from the hips, not large ... it works.
OP, I've really enjoyed your answers. Thanks to everyone for being willing to submit questions.
Kicking from the hip versus the knee is probably the fundamental skill of kicking, and a very counterintuitive one. Any activities in the water or on land that help create an awareness are extremely valuable.
I especially like how the exercise coaches for you. They KNOW they're doing it improperly if the knee hits the ground. You don't have to tell them.
There's a great line in Game of Thrones: "everything before the 'but' is horseshit". But I digress.
The poster indicated that *raising* his head gave him more speed. Certainly worked for me.
After swimming for a couple of decades, I focused on straightening out my pull and gained a couple of seconds per hundred at the same effort.
When you say 'straightening out your pull', do you mean that you began pulling with a straighter arm (less elbow bend), you started pulling back straighter (less lateral movement), or both?
Could you let me know what your thoughts are regarding head position in freestyle? Do you advocate “eyes down†or do you have more variation in your swimmers, with some looking more forward? I am personally finding the eyes down position is slowing me down and am wondering whether to try “pushing through†in hopes of longer term gains, or to stick with the head position that seems to be faster for me at the moment.
Thanks for your help.
Let me know if I didn't answer your question in my response to your original post (i think it's right above this question).
I think you should roll with what's working. While there are some occasions where a technical change or a change in training approach may set you back in the short-term, that's not usually not the case unless you're at very high level of performance AND the change is a massive one.
Go with what is consistently providing the best result.
There's a great line in Game of Thrones: "everything before the 'but' is horseshit". But I digress.
The poster indicated that *raising* his head gave him more speed. Certainly worked for me.
After swimming for a couple of decades, I focused on straightening out my pull and gained a couple of seconds per hundred at the same effort.
When you say 'straightening out your pull', do you mean that you began pulling with a straighter arm (less elbow bend), you started pulling back straighter (less lateral movement), or both?
Thanks,
Andrew
I got rid of any 'S' in my stroke relative to the pool. Definitely like setting my hand and pulling my body past the "stationary" hand. I'll even look on occasion at the path my hand is taking to ensure that I'm not reverting (I can feel it slip when I get fatigued). From above, my hand should trace a straight line from the catch through to the end of the pull. Important to distinguish "straight relative to the pool" from "straight relative to my body," as my body rotation ensures that I'm engaging the important lat muscles throughout the pull. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
I have assessments this week and I FEEL faster. So, we'll see.I successfully did the TriDot workout for the first time last Monday and it felt great. I think the extra day in the pool each week is helping tremendously. I never feel unfamiliar when I hit the water because I'm never out of the pool longer than two days which is nice.
Great advice. I would be happy with some small incremental gains. Eventually I would love to see my swim on par with my bike and run, but that could be 3 or 4 years down the road. The frustrating thing previously before I realized to just focus on technique was that no amount of fitness made me faster it seemed. I could just swim slowly for longer. This time I think I can average 1:35 to 1:50 for the 200 and that will feel like a huge win. If I can have reasonable expectations for the 400 I think I can crush the 200.
Swimming more often will always help. The water is foreign environment with different 'rules' as to how you move. The more often you can get in the water, the better. This is true even if the total volume/time for the week is similar.
One day at a time! Get little wins and will eventually add up to something big.
Andrew
Completed the TSS assessment this morning and am proud to report I am faster.
I knocked 38 s. off the 400 (I think I could have done better but I didn't pace very well) and then I knocked 29 s. off the 200.
I think I've eliminated about 90% the little head lift I had in breathing and the slow swimming has really helped with my rotation.
Curious if I can get some video if you will do an analysis for my next couple of things to work on? I don't mind it being public on this thread and I'm happy to pay you for your time. Not sure if that would be good for the thread or a distraction.... totally up to you.
Thanks so much for the help! I'm happy to finally be making some progress.
I got rid of any 'S' in my stroke relative to the pool. Definitely like setting my hand and pulling my body past the "stationary" hand. I'll even look on occasion at the path my hand is taking to ensure that I'm not reverting (I can feel it slip when I get fatigued). From above, my hand should trace a straight line from the catch through to the end of the pull. Important to distinguish "straight relative to the pool" from "straight relative to my body," as my body rotation ensures that I'm engaging the important lat muscles throughout the pull.
Thanks for the insight. Where you actively taught to the 'S', or did you just acquire it over time? The 'straight relative to the pool' vs. 'straight relative to the body' differentiation is an important one, that trips people up.
Completed the TSS assessment this morning and am proud to report I am faster.
I knocked 38 s. off the 400 (I think I could have done better but I didn't pace very well) and then I knocked 29 s. off the 200.
I think I've eliminated about 90% the little head lift I had in breathing and the slow swimming has really helped with my rotation.
Curious if I can get some video if you will do an analysis for my next couple of things to work on? I don't mind it being public on this thread and I'm happy to pay you for your time. Not sure if that would be good for the thread or a distraction.... totally up to you.
Thanks so much for the help! I'm happy to finally be making some progress.
Well 38s and 29s are pretty substantial improvements! Congrats. Glad to see the hard work is paying off for you.
Feel free to post some video. I'd be happy to take a look.
I got rid of any 'S' in my stroke relative to the pool. Definitely like setting my hand and pulling my body past the "stationary" hand. I'll even look on occasion at the path my hand is taking to ensure that I'm not reverting (I can feel it slip when I get fatigued). From above, my hand should trace a straight line from the catch through to the end of the pull. Important to distinguish "straight relative to the pool" from "straight relative to my body," as my body rotation ensures that I'm engaging the important lat muscles throughout the pull.
Thanks for the insight. Where you actively taught to the 'S', or did you just acquire it over time? The 'straight relative to the pool' vs. 'straight relative to the body' differentiation is an important one, that trips people up.
Andrew
Pretty sure that was the accepted thinking when I started swimming in the mid-1980s. So when I and others would do that (probably due to fatigue causing the hand to slip water during the pull), nobody thought twice about correcting it. ---------------------------------- "Go yell at an M&M"
Pretty sure that was the accepted thinking when I started swimming in the mid-1980s. So when I and others would do that (probably due to fatigue causing the hand to slip water during the pull), nobody thought twice about correcting it.
Makes sense. I appreciate it. I thought that was the timeline, which was why I asked. It's interesting to see how thinking changes over time.
Makes one wonder what we're doing now that will be totally different in 30 years!
Pretty sure that was the accepted thinking when I started swimming in the mid-1980s. So when I and others would do that (probably due to fatigue causing the hand to slip water during the pull), nobody thought twice about correcting it.
Makes sense. I appreciate it. I thought that was the timeline, which was why I asked. It's interesting to see how thinking changes over time.
Makes one wonder what we're doing now that will be totally different in 30 years!
Andrew
Somewhere back in the middle of this thread someone asked "what if I want to get really fast, as in a 16:00 1500 m", and you replied that he/she need to swim a lot of yards but also to swim fast 25s and 50s every day. Since 25s and 50s are the staple diet of young swimmers learning to swim faster in a competitive swim clinic, I am curious as to why you only recommended the 25s/50s to this one fellow and not to everyone trying to get faster. Thanks, Eric. "Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Working on getting some video, hopefully this week.
Quick pacing question...
TriDot gave me this great workout this week, best possible average of 7 x 50y on 2:30 with a middle recovery set and then another of the same.
It took me a couple 50's to realize this is basically a sprint at my ability. So, my fastest 50's were 1:32/100y - what would be good pacing to aim for in the 200 and 400?
Also, I was reading about how faster swimmers turn their arms over at a rate of 60+ spm - this some times confuses me because I don't know if they're quoting one arm or both, but I was comparing my swim to a good swimmer's workout and I average a distance per stroke of about 2 yards swimming slow and 1.5 in a sprint with a stroke rate of low 20's cruising and mid 30's at my fastest. The more accomplished swimmer turns over 65 times per minute and a DPS closer to 1.25 yards. Should I be focusing on faster turnover and less glide?
Hi Andrew. Thanks again for this thread. I have a question for you.
A typical workout for me is 30 x 50 on 1:15. I usually come in :45-46. This is significantly faster than it was even six months ago and I am swimming at 60spm. At 75spm, I can hit :40, though I can't make the interval more than a time or two. If I try to, I find that I slip and my times start to climb back towards :45 over the next several reps.
Recently, I have been experimenting with resistance training. Usually I'll do some 100s with paddles and dragsox with or without the pull buoy mid workout. After a few sets, I'll return to my 50s and I find that I am dropping as much as four seconds per interval. It feels like I am flying. Over the next few reps, I return to my normal interval time.
My question for you is how much resistance work should I be doing? Is there a ratio of normal swimming to resistance work that you would recommend? Any advice would be appreciated.
Hi Andrew. Thanks again for this thread. I have a question for you.
A typical workout for me is 30 x 50 on 1:15. I usually come in :45-46. This is significantly faster than it was even six months ago and I am swimming at 60spm. At 75spm, I can hit :40, though I can't make the interval more than a time or two. If I try to, I find that I slip and my times start to climb back towards :45 over the next several reps.
Recently, I have been experimenting with resistance training. Usually I'll do some 100s with paddles and dragsox with or without the pull buoy mid workout. After a few sets, I'll return to my 50s and I find that I am dropping as much as four seconds per interval. It feels like I am flying. Over the next few reps, I return to my normal interval time.
My question for you is how much resistance work should I be doing? Is there a ratio of normal swimming to resistance work that you would recommend? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks again.
Not answering for the OP, but you can do your 50s with varied speeds, and that will help. I do a set a bunch - 20x50 on 1:00 (1:05 would be ok at your speed) but doing them as 8x50 with every 4th FAST, 6x50 with every 3rd fast, 4x50 with every 2nd fast, and 2 fast. You begin to develop both feeling easier at the slower speed and learning to recover while swimming. Just a thought on the 50s workout! DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
Somewhere back in the middle of this thread someone asked "what if I want to get really fast, as in a 16:00 1500 m", and you replied that he/she need to swim a lot of yards but also to swim fast 25s and 50s every day. Since 25s and 50s are the staple diet of young swimmers learning to swim faster in a competitive swim clinic, I am curious as to why you only recommended the 25s/50s to this one fellow and not to everyone trying to get faster. Thanks, Eric.
Speaking to a 16:00 1500m, my assumption (perhaps incorrect) was that this individual was already a pretty competent swimmer and reasonably close to achieving this target. Perhaps they can swim 19:00 for 1500m or something similar. Someone like this probably has pretty decent skills and a pretty decent base of fitness. Most people tend to neglect the speed aspect, particularly in longer swimming events, and when they start to get pretty good. Everyone focuses on the volume and the fitness aspect. However, it's still a speed event and they need to work on that.
To your point, I think doing short sprints is beneficial for anyone, provided they are focused executing their skills as fast as possible, rather than just swimming hard. The reason I hadn't discussed or made that suggestion to anyone else was that's the only real question that's been directed my way about training. Everything else has been mostly about technique, so I haven't really gotten into training prescription for anyone else.
I am NOT a fan of just doing 25s DRILL and thinking that doing so will magically change your skills. Technique has to be integrated into everything you do. If you're referencing that advice, I see doing 25s/50s FAST and repetitive 25s drill, I think that those two strategies are very different.
As a basic approach to training, with technical development in mind, there are three types (all of which have nearly infinite sub-variations)
1. Slow training- Sub threshold, doesn't have to be continuous, the focus is on building volume over time. You should be executing your skills to the best of your current ability. Strict technical work can and should be a part of this process. 2. Fast training- very short and fast, larger recoveries, swimming as fast you can with a reasonable standard of technique based upon your current abilities. You can do some technical work FAST here. 3. Hard training- threshold type work/VO2max type work/etc. This can encompass a range of activities, most requiring effort and creating fatigue. Again, executed with a reasonable standard of technique.
Over a season, you build a 'base' with 1 and 2, and start layering in and eventually focusing on 3.
To clearly answer your original question, it does have value for everyone. It will be more valuable to the individual that is already working on their technique and doing a decent amount of solid swimming. This is especially true when covering longer distances. If someone just focuses on the short stuff, it's probably not a winning combination to swim well over longer distances, so it's not something I emphasize immediately in my communication.
One of the big values for ANYONE is NOT swimming at the same speed every time they get in the water. The should practice swimming slow, fast, and somewhere in between. Swimming the same speed all the time is not a great strategy.
If anyone has questions about the training side, happy to answer them as well.
Hope that helps. If you have follow up questions, please let me know. Speed matters.
Working on getting some video, hopefully this week.
Quick pacing question...
TriDot gave me this great workout this week, best possible average of 7 x 50y on 2:30 with a middle recovery set and then another of the same.
It took me a couple 50's to realize this is basically a sprint at my ability. So, my fastest 50's were 1:32/100y - what would be good pacing to aim for in the 200 and 400?
Also, I was reading about how faster swimmers turn their arms over at a rate of 60+ spm - this some times confuses me because I don't know if they're quoting one arm or both, but I was comparing my swim to a good swimmer's workout and I average a distance per stroke of about 2 yards swimming slow and 1.5 in a sprint with a stroke rate of low 20's cruising and mid 30's at my fastest. The more accomplished swimmer turns over 65 times per minute and a DPS closer to 1.25 yards. Should I be focusing on faster turnover and less glide?
So 2x7x50 on 2:30 and you're going 46 seconds per 50?
A set like that is one where you're getting a fair amount of rest. I would think that you are swimming WAY faster than what you could hold for a 200 and definitely a 400.
I tend to not look at sets as 'predictors', but as comparisons. So rather than saying that the set you did means you can go X time, I would just focus on improving the set you did over time. For instance, if you do the same set in a month and you average 44s or 43s, you're FASTER. The same can be said for any set you do.
The only swimmers that get up to 60+ CYCLES (left+right arm = 1) per minute are 50m swimmers and not all of them do that. If what you read was about swimming in any context other than sprinting in a pool they meant 60+ STROKES (left+right = 2), or 30 CYCLES per minute. NO ONE can sustain 60 CYCLES with any sort of efficiency for any duration of time.
The article is talking about going about 32 cycles per minute. I think if you're able to sustain stroke rates at around 30 cycles per minute (+/-5 for individual differences), that's pretty reasonable. If you're only able to get up to mid 30s, you might want to shorten things up a bit. Some people CAN glide too much. However, it's hard to know definitively without seeing it.
The question I just answered in regards to short sprints might be helpful to you to practice with a higher tempo.
Do this- start paying attention to your stroke counts AND your times. See if you can swim faster with slightly HIGHER stroke counts (that means that you're increasing you stroke rate AND it's worth it because you're going faster). If you try different strategies over time, and you pay attention, you'll find what works for you. Practice this over a range of speed. You may find that slightly shorter stroke, with bigger increase in stroke rate works for you. However, you need to use the numbers to back it up.
It took me a couple 50's to realize this is basically a sprint at my ability. So, my fastest 50's were 1:32/100y - what would be good pacing to aim for in the 200 and 400?
Forgot to answer this fully. It's hard for me to know definitely. If you want to get a good sense of what you PROBABLY could hold, do something like the following-
200 2x5x50 with 20-30 seconds rest between each 50; active recovery in between
400 10x50 with 10-20 seconds rest with recovery in between
Whatever you do on those sets, you could probably do straight up for 1 effort if you were excited about going for it on the individual swim. As you can tell, those sets are pretty different than the 50s on 2:30. It would likely be several seconds slower per 50.
Didn't you do a fast 200 and 400 recently? How did those times compared to the 1:32/100 average from the 50s? That's a pretty good indicator of how many seconds you'd need to add to the 1:32 average. Do those comparisons, and you'll get a sense of how predictive any set is for YOU.
Not answering for the OP, but you can do your 50s with varied speeds, and that will help. I do a set a bunch - 20x50 on 1:00 (1:05 would be ok at your speed) but doing them as 8x50 with every 4th FAST, 6x50 with every 3rd fast, 4x50 with every 2nd fast, and 2 fast. You begin to develop both feeling easier at the slower speed and learning to recover while swimming. Just a thought on the 50s workout!
Varied speed work is GREAT for 2 reasons you alluded to-
1. Learning to shift gears TECHNICALLY. Different speeds will feel different and you want to be able to control that at will.2 2. Active recovery is a great physical stimulus where you go beyond your physical comfort zone and you have to recover while still swimming.
Too many people swim at the same speed all the time. Mix it up between workouts, within workouts, AND within sets.
Hi Andrew. Thanks again for this thread. I have a question for you.
A typical workout for me is 30 x 50 on 1:15. I usually come in :45-46. This is significantly faster than it was even six months ago and I am swimming at 60spm. At 75spm, I can hit :40, though I can't make the interval more than a time or two. If I try to, I find that I slip and my times start to climb back towards :45 over the next several reps.
Recently, I have been experimenting with resistance training. Usually I'll do some 100s with paddles and dragsox with or without the pull buoy mid workout. After a few sets, I'll return to my 50s and I find that I am dropping as much as four seconds per interval. It feels like I am flying. Over the next few reps, I return to my normal interval time.
My question for you is how much resistance work should I be doing? Is there a ratio of normal swimming to resistance work that you would recommend? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks again.
It could be worth working on swimming at 75spm, but as you know found out(!), you probably need more rest to do so. You could perform the set as suggested with every 3rd or 4th fast, and that would probably work, or just perform fewer repetitions and increase the rest interval. Say 12x50 on 2:00 trying to hit 40s. That's just a suggestion, you'd have to find out what's sustainable for you.
While resistance work can be good for developing 'strength', it can also be VERY good for developing technical skills, even encouraging short-term changes. As you saw, SOMETHING changed when you did the resistance work and then took it off. If something like that happens, it's probably technical. I see it often. While someone of you may have heard of post-activation potentiation (lifting something heavy before you do something fast), I don't think that's what's going on. I think it's TECHNICAL potentiation. It's causing you to swim better somehow. You may get better awareness of how you're moving in the water, it may encourage better arm actions (I think this is happening) and it may force you to hold more water (I think this is happening). Why does it wear off? It could be that you lose the feel you obtained, or you just get tired.
To your question, how often should you use it? I would use it like I described, as a technical potential tool. Use it to lock in your skills and get the feeling of swimming well. Then do some training, whatever you do. Then use the resistance to get locked back in. The do some more swimming. Over time, you want to be able to swim for LONGER periods of time without NEEDING the resistance work to get you set. That means the changes are becoming more stable. AND you want to be able to get locked in FASTER with less resistance work.
So no hard and fast rules as to how much. Just remember that the ultimate goal is to get better at REGULAR swimming, so use the resistance as a tool to help your regular swimming. In general, I would say that more than 1:1 is not a great idea. It seems like you've stumbled upon something that helps your swimming. Now just apply it a little more strategically and systematically to help improve your swimming.
This is how I think the MAJORITY of technical work should happen. Find technical exercises that help you FEEL better after using them or help you FEEL a skill. Then do some training or full stroke swimming, aiming to recreate those sensations. When it falls apart, go back to the technical exercises, get the groove back, and go again.
Happy to expand if people have more questions, or show some simple sample sets to illustrate the concepts. Let me know.
It took me a couple 50's to realize this is basically a sprint at my ability. So, my fastest 50's were 1:32/100y - what would be good pacing to aim for in the 200 and 400?
Forgot to answer this fully. It's hard for me to know definitely. If you want to get a good sense of what you PROBABLY could hold, do something like the following-
200 2x5x50 with 20-30 seconds rest between each 50; active recovery in between
400 10x50 with 10-20 seconds rest with recovery in between
Whatever you do on those sets, you could probably do straight up for 1 effort if you were excited about going for it on the individual swim. As you can tell, those sets are pretty different than the 50s on 2:30. It would likely be several seconds slower per 50.
Didn't you do a fast 200 and 400 recently? How did those times compared to the 1:32/100 average from the 50s? That's a pretty good indicator of how many seconds you'd need to add to the 1:32 average. Do those comparisons, and you'll get a sense of how predictive any set is for YOU.
Hope that helps.
Andrew
Hey Andrew - thanks so much for your thoughtful response.
Recent 400 was 8:15 and 200 was 3:45, that's why I was asking because I feel like I had a lot of kick in the last 25, so I want to work on pacing. One thing I was thinking about is that I can just do some 200 and 400 work and play with pacing, see how long I can hold that 50 pace. My fastest 5k run times I go out as fast as I can and simply try and hold on as hard and long as I can.
Somewhere back in the middle of this thread someone asked "what if I want to get really fast, as in a 16:00 1500 m", and you replied that he/she need to swim a lot of yards but also to swim fast 25s and 50s every day. Since 25s and 50s are the staple diet of young swimmers learning to swim faster in a competitive swim clinic, I am curious as to why you only recommended the 25s/50s to this one fellow and not to everyone trying to get faster. Thanks, Eric.
Speaking to a 16:00 1500m, my assumption (perhaps incorrect) was that this individual was already a pretty competent swimmer and reasonably close to achieving this target. Perhaps they can swim 19:00 for 1500m or something similar. Someone like this probably has pretty decent skills and a pretty decent base of fitness. Most people tend to neglect the speed aspect, particularly in longer swimming events, and when they start to get pretty good. Everyone focuses on the volume and the fitness aspect. However, it's still a speed event and they need to work on that.
To your point, I think doing short sprints is beneficial for anyone, provided they are focused executing their skills as fast as possible, rather than just swimming hard. The reason I hadn't discussed or made that suggestion to anyone else was that's the only real question that's been directed my way about training. Everything else has been mostly about technique, so I haven't really gotten into training prescription for anyone else.
I am NOT a fan of just doing 25s DRILL and thinking that doing so will magically change your skills. Technique has to be integrated into everything you do. If you're referencing that advice, I see doing 25s/50s FAST and repetitive 25s drill, I think that those two strategies are very different.
As a basic approach to training, with technical development in mind, there are three types (all of which have nearly infinite sub-variations)
1. Slow training- Sub threshold, doesn't have to be continuous, the focus is on building volume over time. You should be executing your skills to the best of your current ability. Strict technical work can and should be a part of this process. 2. Fast training- very short and fast, larger recoveries, swimming as fast you can with a reasonable standard of technique based upon your current abilities. You can do some technical work FAST here. 3. Hard training- threshold type work/VO2max type work/etc. This can encompass a range of activities, most requiring effort and creating fatigue. Again, executed with a reasonable standard of technique.
Over a season, you build a 'base' with 1 and 2, and start layering in and eventually focusing on 3.
To clearly answer your original question, it does have value for everyone. It will be more valuable to the individual that is already working on their technique and doing a decent amount of solid swimming. This is especially true when covering longer distances. If someone just focuses on the short stuff, it's probably not a winning combination to swim well over longer distances, so it's not something I emphasize immediately in my communication.
One of the big values for ANYONE is NOT swimming at the same speed every time they get in the water. The should practice swimming slow, fast, and somewhere in between. Swimming the same speed all the time is not a great strategy.
If anyone has questions about the training side, happy to answer them as well.
Hope that helps. If you have follow up questions, please let me know. Speed matters.
Andrew
Ah, I had not really noticed that everyone outside of that one guy was asking technique questions but there again that is the thread title. Anyway, I knew that you would agree on the value of fast 25s and 50s. Swim training would be pretty boring if we always just swam at the same pace. :) "Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
I’d like some feedback on my stroke. I’m new to triathlon and used to swim when I was a kid but haven’t swam in 40 ish years. Attached video is my first laps of warm up. This is typical low endurance pace for me. Thanks!
I’d like some feedback on my stroke. I’m new to triathlon and used to swim when I was a kid but haven’t swam in 40 ish years. Attached video is my first laps of warm up. This is typical low endurance pace for me. Thanks!
Chris - I don't see any video but in any case you should reply with your video to Mastering Flow since he is the real expert. :) "Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Now that we're also talking about swim training, what do you recommend for strength and conditioning? I am particularly interested in timing of the strength work and how that affects swim training, i.e. do your athletes strength train every day, or only on non-swim days etc.
Ah, I had not really noticed that everyone outside of that one guy was asking technique questions but there again that is the thread title. Anyway, I knew that you would agree on the value of fast 25s and 50s. Swim training would be pretty boring if we always just swam at the same pace. :)
Now that we're also talking about swim training, what do you recommend for strength and conditioning? I am particularly interested in timing of the strength work and how that affects swim training, i.e. do your athletes strength train every day, or only on non-swim days etc.
It depends a lot on context.
Most college teams are doing some sort of land work 4-6 times per week, whether that's formal strength training, or lower level stuff involving mostly bodyweight. However, I am not sure that's applicable for just about anyone reading this, as they're kids, they don't have jobs, they're only training for 1 sport, and the vast majority of the events they swim last 2 minutes or less. That probably doesn't describe you or just about anyone else reading this.
What are some general concepts that can be applied?
-From an upper body perspective, focus on pressing and pulling exercises. Aim to get stronger over time without killing yourself. If you’re destroying yourself in your strength work, it will compromise the endurance work. Push-ups/pull-ups/dips will go a LONG way.
-From a swimming perspective, I would not do anything special for the lower body. I would make my decisions based upon what will help the bike and run. That will be sufficient for the lower body in the water.
-Basic core/torso/calisthenics are useful. There are countless ways to do this. Pick one and stick with it. They’re all effective if done over time.
-Consistency is the most important of strength development. Doing a small amount over time is how you get strong, especially in the context of endurance sports. Commit to high quality work done with consistency. You’ll get where you want to go while staying focused on the main objective, the endurance work.
-From a timing standpoint, I would avoid combining hard endurance work and hard strength training. You’re probably not going to get a great response from either. If combining the two in one workout, I would go easy on one of them. If you’re going to push the strength work, go easy on the swimming. If you’re going to push the strength work, go easy on the swimming. Whatever is more important to you at the time and during that specific workout, I would do first. If strength is the focus, do it first, then swim. And vice versa. The exception to this is if swimming ‘warms you up’ for strength training. If that’s the case, you can swim and then do strength stuff even if you’re strength training is the priority. Of course, the swim probably shouldn’t be a massive endurance session if that’s the case. As far as non-swim days, most swimmers usually only take 1 day off, and they’re not doing anything on that day. As a result, most swim and do strength work on the same day. If you’re not swimming every day, I would separate the two, if possible.
An anecdote that might be useful for those chasing strength as the means to really fast swimming. I have coached multiple female All-Americans that could do ZERO pull-ups. If you can do a single pull-up, you have enough strength to swim fast. I am NOT saying that strength is irrelevant or that these swimmers wouldn’t have been faster if they were stronger. I am saying that being really strong is not required, and spending a lot of time and energy chasing strength is probably not going to get you what you hope it will.
Happy to expand on any of those points if you’re looking for more detail on a given point.
Now that we're also talking about swim training, what do you recommend for strength and conditioning? I am particularly interested in timing of the strength work and how that affects swim training, i.e. do your athletes strength train every day, or only on non-swim days etc.
It depends a lot on context.
Thanks for your response Andrew. The context here is that I am a 46 year old male training for IM, with fairly good upper body strength from a background in rugby and martial arts (I can still do 3 sets of 10 pull-ups for example). I have a feeling I have plenty of strength to be able to swim much faster than I do, but I'll admit that I enjoy strength training and its effects on my body, so I use a kettlebell and dumbbells as well as the bodyweight stuff you mentioned two or three times a week, for 30 minutes each time. I don't do any heavy lifting these days (no barbell stuff) because I find it trashes my ability to train S/B/R effectively. I swim M/W/Sa on a good week so I have four non-swimming days. What I have been finding is that the strength work seems to affect my swimming less if I lift at lunch time on my swim day (M + W are evening masters swims); when I lift the day before swimming (i.e. on a non-swim day), I feel way more stiff, sore and limited in the pool, presumably because of the time-lag of DOMS. If I lift on a Thursday, my Saturday swim does not seem to be affected, so I am aiming to lift M/W/Th at the moment.
My body position has got to be terrible, absolutely terrible. Worked this week with my hardware and while I got some improvement with the paddles, the dragsox seem to produce the biggest burst of speed afterwards. Interestingly, the upkick seems like the part that is improved by them? I felt my heels break the surface and don't recall that happening before. Also, I only use a two beat kick, so I'm not expecting a lot of propulsion, but my position must be bad. I wonder if I kick down but my feet never make it back up?
So I put on my neoprene shorts on after kicking some 50s, and did a couple of 100s. I swam a 1:28 and then a 1:26 at 60 spm. Not even trying hard.
I need to setup my gopro to get some video and I need to work on body position. My plan is to do so for the next month, really focus on getting my heels to the surface. I read about "kicktastics" whose body position is so good that a wetsuit doesn't help. Looks like I'm the opposite.
I'll keep you updated on my progress and I'll pray for wetsuit swims until I get it right.
Thanks for your response Andrew. The context here is that I am a 46 year old male training for IM, with fairly good upper body strength from a background in rugby and martial arts (I can still do 3 sets of 10 pull-ups for example). I have a feeling I have plenty of strength to be able to swim much faster than I do, but I'll admit that I enjoy strength training and its effects on my body, so I use a kettlebell and dumbbells as well as the bodyweight stuff you mentioned two or three times a week, for 30 minutes each time. I don't do any heavy lifting these days (no barbell stuff) because I find it trashes my ability to train S/B/R effectively. I swim M/W/Sa on a good week so I have four non-swimming days. What I have been finding is that the strength work seems to affect my swimming less if I lift at lunch time on my swim day (M + W are evening masters swims); when I lift the day before swimming (i.e. on a non-swim day), I feel way more stiff, sore and limited in the pool, presumably because of the time-lag of DOMS. If I lift on a Thursday, my Saturday swim does not seem to be affected, so I am aiming to lift M/W/Th at the moment.[/quote] This is a great example of altering your training to prioritizing your goals, while still performing other activities that you enjoy. You're definitely supporting your strength needs without compromising your swimming. While there are some 'rules' that can be useful, it ultimately comes down to what works best for the individual operating in their context.
As far as timing, it sounds to me like you have it dialed in for you, and I wouldn't change anything.
My body position has got to be terrible, absolutely terrible. Worked this week with my hardware and while I got some improvement with the paddles, the dragsox seem to produce the biggest burst of speed afterwards. Interestingly, the upkick seems like the part that is improved by them? I felt my heels break the surface and don't recall that happening before. Also, I only use a two beat kick, so I'm not expecting a lot of propulsion, but my position must be bad. I wonder if I kick down but my feet never make it back up?
So I put on my neoprene shorts on after kicking some 50s, and did a couple of 100s. I swam a 1:28 and then a 1:26 at 60 spm. Not even trying hard.
I need to setup my gopro to get some video and I need to work on body position. My plan is to do so for the next month, really focus on getting my heels to the surface. I read about "kicktastics" whose body position is so good that a wetsuit doesn't help. Looks like I'm the opposite.
I'll keep you updated on my progress and I'll pray for wetsuit swims until I get it right.
The sox tend to encourage kicking with a straighter leg from the hip. If you kick with a predominantly knee-based kick while wearing sox, you will go NOWHERE. The sox are probably cleaning up your kicking action. As you said, it's likely creating a more streamlined position rather than creating propulsion. The sox also encourage keeping the feet up. You won't go anywhere if the feet are low with the sox, either.
Another possibility- a well timed two-beat kick can be pretty effective at facilitating good timing. If done well, the kick can help shift the body from one side to the other. It tends to work better when the kick is straighter. Something along those lines may be happening as well.
While keeping the heels up at the surface, make sure it comes as a result of good body position. It's possible to keep the heels at the surface even when your hips are really low by bending the knee and 'reaching' up with the foot. That's not what you want either. The feet should be up high as a result of the hips.
I would keep working with the sox. Even if you can't figure out WHY it's working, it obviously has a consistently positive impact for you. If it ain't broke...
This could be valuable for a lot of people as many probably demonstrate similar issues. The biggest area you need to address is your balance and your body position in the water. The clues to that comfort/balance are a problem-
-There is an overall tightness and rigidity to the stroke. It's not flowing as well as it could. -There is a lot of kicking relative to the speed of swimming and the stroke rate that's being used. -This breath is high and up out of the water, and it is not smooth. There is an increase in rigidity and stiffness during the breath (the breath further disrupts position.
These are all indicators that a lot of work is being done just to stay up on the surface, and level in the water. If anyone ever watches themselves swim and they see any of these issues, and/or it just doesn't look comfortable, it's a balance issue. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, balance and stability are all skills taught to young swimmers at the introductory stages of swimming, yet are skipped by most adults. If that issue isn't addressed, one can only go so far.
Some of the floating and body position exercises I've referred to earlier in this thread would be a good place to start. In spite of this, everything else looks decent, and will clean up even more if you address the fundamental issue.
I recently gave a presentation at USA Triathlon's Endurance Exchange about integrating skill and fitness development in the water. It was well-received and seems to be an issue a lot of triathletes struggle with, both conceptually and putting it into practice.
My name is Andrew and I am college swim coach. I am also a USAT Level I Coach.
I love working with triathletes to help them improve their skills in the water, particularly those without a swimming background, and without access to formal in-person coaching.
If you have questions about how to improve your skills in the water, please shoot them my way in this thread.
I'd be happy to help to the best of my ability.
The more information you provide about your context (years swimming, approximate swimming speed, etc), and the more specific your question is, the more effectively I'll be able to help you out.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Andrew
Hi Andrew,
thanks a lot for your effort in explaining swimming!!! I have read almost the entire thread and found some very useful tips and drills....
I have spent time with your flotation drill and found that my legs sink like stones. I can float comfortably when I pull my legs towards my torso but as soon as I stretch them out they sink like stones and pull me back into an almost vertical position....When I start to kick very lightly, they come to the surface and I can float easily.... Here is my question: As a relatively poor adult onset swimmer (7:50, 400m SCM) I am swimming with a two beat kick because I was told that would be the most energy efficient way for me to swim. Now, when I try to float using the rhythm of my two beat kick my legs sink like stones again, but when I use a light flutter kick, they remain at the surface....Do you think I would be better off using a minimal flutter kick? Or do I have to spend more time floating around and keep a two beat kick?
thanks a lot for your effort in explaining swimming!!! I have read almost the entire thread and found some very useful tips and drills....
I have spent time with your flotation drill and found that my legs sink like stones. I can float comfortably when I pull my legs towards my torso but as soon as I stretch them out they sink like stones and pull me back into an almost vertical position....When I start to kick very lightly, they come to the surface and I can float easily.... Here is my question: As a relatively poor adult onset swimmer (7:50, 400m SCM) I am swimming with a two beat kick because I was told that would be the most energy efficient way for me to swim. Now, when I try to float using the rhythm of my two beat kick my legs sink like stones again, but when I use a light flutter kick, they remain at the surface....Do you think I would be better off using a minimal flutter kick? Or do I have to spend more time floating around and keep a two beat kick?
Thanks again. Best, Uli
Glad I could help, Uli.
1. If you can float comfortably in any position, that is a very good thing. The key is to get a feeling for what that supports feels like, and then try to replicate it to some degree while you swim. For what it’s worth I swam a reasonably high level, and my legs sink like a stone when I extend them out. Likewise, I kick lightly and they come to the surface. However, without playing with and understanding where your flotation comes from, it can be difficult to get to that point. I would keep practicing on SLOWLY extending your legs out while trying to stay balanced. Try to get better over time. Be patient. A small change can make a big difference.
2. I don’t think you need to swim with a two-beat kick if you find the light kick is more effectively. However, I think you should keep working on the floating and the two-beat kick so that you COULD use a two-beat kick if you wanted to. If you’re balanced in the water, a two-beat kick should be sufficient to keep your legs up. If you can’t, something is probably off. I would just consider ‘two-beat kick swimming’ as a drill you’re practicing, and try to get better at it. When you want to swim normally, just do whatever feels best. It you can improve your two-beat kick swimming, the benefits of doing so will translate over to your regular swimming, regardless of the kick you choose to use.
Does that make sense? Let me know if you have any follow up questions.
Everyone! I think it's wrong to watch other people swimming wrong, but i need some advice;) Hi, Andrew! I've got your ebook just now and will try to change my understanding of body position in the water. I understand that only the drills can lead to better technique and the way i swim (faster as a result) but some of them wouldn't be as beneficial as the others. I will appreciate it if you could watch my latest video and give me 2 or 3 drills i should be doing most of the time. - I'm 31, 181cm (arms 186), 65kg. Boxing and гltra-running background, no swimming until 2020. Can't lay on the water: legs are sinking. I don't know what to do in the water. All my actions in the water are wrong and inefficient. It was hard to reach forward and not exhale at the same time. A bit better now. I'm used to strong exhale when doing some power-action (i.e.: crossfit, boxing). Pool swimming since Nov2020 45min 2-3 times/week, since Dec2021 1h 4-5 times/week. Gear: Finis agility paddles, zoomers gold, snorkel, pull buoy, hydro hip belt, speedo power paddle (old version), rectangular flat paddles (homemade) for finger drills+forearm. -
So i don't know how to swim and use the water. But i do some drills and can compare my underwater shots to someone else.
Training paces: 1h endurance @2:09, 15*50@52sec/15sec, 400m at the end of 1h @2:00 - After watching the latest video and doing some analysis, i did 2 sessions and the first 1km time-trial: a bit under 19:00. If i was alone on the lane + wearing swim jammers (Nero R10), i think i can make it ~18:30. - In January i set a goal to swim 1h@1:45. That was a goal from my running background. As of now, i have a goal to swim 1k@1:45 till August.
- Here is what i saw in my latest video : -there is too much wrist curve during the catch so i'm losing a lot of water hold; -can't understand what's happening with my hand on the last part of the pull; i feel that my fingers and pointing down and i'm pressing backward, but there is a lot of slipping action for some reason + short exit; -the reach is ok and i'm locking the elbow but as soon as i start the catch, the elbow is dropping a bit. -too much skrew-like movement after the hand entry; -fingers are higher than the forearm&elbow, no straight line; esp. during the breath; -head should turn directly to the side, not through looking 45 degrees angle; -a bit lazy legs (i'm trying to concentrate on the upper body); -can't go without taking a breath at my first stroke after turn; can't breathe to both sides and pull strong. There might be some problem with me under the load: since 2020 i can run fast but as soon as there is an incline/stairs i immediately feel as i'm losing power and the legs are weak and i need a lot of oxygen + can't do the running workouts i did before; -too much up and down bouncing; -if i breathe to the right it feels very weird but ~5sec faster and looks better. I think i'm just not exiting too short this way. It was always harder for me to breathe to the right. The middle part is to the left, last part is to the right. -i don't feel exhausted. I don't drink coffee in daily life, after 1h swim i feel as i've had a cup of coffee. The way i swim right now leads to no air deficiency. - I'm trying to mimic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jXkeWYtjRk & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o Please let me know if there is any good example suitable for my body type.
Everyone! I think it's wrong to watch other people swimming wrong, but i need some advice;) Hi, Andrew! I've got your ebook just now and will try to change my understanding of body position in the water. I understand that only the drills can lead to better technique and the way i swim (faster as a result) but some of them wouldn't be as beneficial as the others. I will appreciate it if you could watch my latest video and give me 2 or 3 drills i should be doing most of the time. - I'm 31, 181cm (arms 186), 65kg. Boxing and гltra-running background, no swimming until 2020. Can't lay on the water: legs are sinking. I don't know what to do in the water. All my actions in the water are wrong and inefficient. It was hard to reach forward and not exhale at the same time. A bit better now. I'm used to strong exhale when doing some power-action (i.e.: crossfit, boxing). Pool swimming since Nov2020 45min 2-3 times/week, since Dec2021 1h 4-5 times/week. Gear: Finis agility paddles, zoomers gold, snorkel, pull buoy, hydro hip belt, speedo power paddle (old version), rectangular flat paddles (homemade) for finger drills+forearm. -
So i don't know how to swim and use the water. But i do some drills and can compare my underwater shots to someone else.
Training paces: 1h endurance @2:09, 15*50@52sec/15sec, 400m at the end of 1h @2:00 - After watching the latest video and doing some analysis, i did 2 sessions and the first 1km time-trial: a bit under 19:00. If i was alone on the lane + wearing swim jammers (Nero R10), i think i can make it ~18:30. - In January i set a goal to swim 1h@1:45. That was a goal from my running background. As of now, i have a goal to swim 1k@1:45 till August.
- Here is what i saw in my latest video : -there is too much wrist curve during the catch so i'm losing a lot of water hold; -can't understand what's happening with my hand on the last part of the pull; i feel that my fingers and pointing down and i'm pressing backward, but there is a lot of slipping action for some reason + short exit; -the reach is ok and i'm locking the elbow but as soon as i start the catch, the elbow is dropping a bit. -too much skrew-like movement after the hand entry; -fingers are higher than the forearm&elbow, no straight line; esp. during the breath; -head should turn directly to the side, not through looking 45 degrees angle; -a bit lazy legs (i'm trying to concentrate on the upper body); -can't go without taking a breath at my first stroke after turn; can't breathe to both sides and pull strong. There might be some problem with me under the load: since 2020 i can run fast but as soon as there is an incline/stairs i immediately feel as i'm losing power and the legs are weak and i need a lot of oxygen + can't do the running workouts i did before; -too much up and down bouncing; -if i breathe to the right it feels very weird but ~5sec faster and looks better. I think i'm just not exiting too short this way. It was always harder for me to breathe to the right. The middle part is to the left, last part is to the right. -i don't feel exhausted. I don't drink coffee in daily life, after 1h swim i feel as i've had a cup of coffee. The way i swim right now leads to no air deficiency. - I'm trying to mimic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jXkeWYtjRk & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o Please let me know if there is any good example suitable for my body type.
Hi Gennady,
Nice to hear from you. Thanks for providing all of the details and the video it makes it much easier to help.
Here is what I see-
1. Considering the amount of time you've been swimming, you've done a REALLY good job. To me, you look very comfortable in the water, you have all the basics down well, and your overall rhythm is good. NICE work!
2. While you're observations are generally correct about the errors you need to address, they are all little details that aren't the main issue. While they add up, I believe there is a more pressing issue. Address this issue FIRST, and then you can go back to these details. Really, you have most of the details down reasonably well.
3. The reason you are not getting tired is because you are swimming SLOW. You are taking way too long in the front of your stroke, and the length of time it takes you to move through a stroke cycle is almost twice what it should be! That's why there is no air deficiency. To use a loose analogy, all of the swimming you're doing right now is the equivalent of 'walking' and you need to start running!
4. To swim faster, you need to change your timing. While Sun Yang is a great swimmer (obviously!), you've taken your emulation of him to the extreme. You are waiting on in front for MUCH longer than he does and you are rotating MUCH more than he does. That's why your stroke rate is so low and your swimming is not very fast.
Solutions-
1. Use the exercise linked below, and NEVER let your hands pause in the front. You have to get the hands moving back IMMEDIATELY once they reach full extension in the front of the stroke. You have to force this and it will be very uncomfortable at first.
2. Start counting your strokes in addition to keeping track of your times. Your goal is to take MORE strokes. This is the opposite of what is typically recommended. The reason is that you are gliding WAY too much. You need to get rid of the glide and taking more strokes will force you do this. At first, this will be VERY uncomfortable. Stick with it. You also need to pay attention to your times. Whenever you take more strokes, you should be swimming faster. At first, you may have to practice over short distances. It's probably going to be more challenging physically, and you're going to want to go back to the long, slow stroke rate. Stick with it.
3. If you are significantly faster breathing to your least preferred side, figure out what's different and copy that on the other side.
4. Once you change the timing and get rid of the excessive gliding, you can start to work on the details of your arm pull, which is relatively speaking, pretty decent.
Give this a shot and let me know how it goes. Let me know if you have follow up questions.
You've done a good job of making some changes, you've just taken it too far with the length out front.
Hope it helps!
Andrew
*Note to anyone else reading this- these strategies apply to Gennady and do NOT necessarily apply to you. Depending on your problems, this advice may make you WORSE if you are already taking a lot of strokes and swimming with a average or high stroke rate.*
*Note to anyone else reading this #2- stroke counts can be very useful for working on skill and for training. However, if taken to the extreme and you end up gliding forever with a low stroke count, it is no doubt SLOWER. Stroke length and stroke rate BOTH matter. While stroke rate comes more naturally to most than stroke length (which is why counting strokes can be helpful), it is the relationship between the two that matter.
I have never given my core a second thought in many, many years of swimming. I can do exercises that strengthen those muscles, but how should I be mindful of them and use them when I swim free?
I would be happy to read, watch videos, and/or do drills to make this happen.
In earlier posts you mentioned fatigue in the shoulders and biceps. I am a 65 yo getting back into tri after 5 years off. As Im swimming I find that my biceps are the first muscles to show signs of fatigue while swimming. My chest then shoulders follow. Unfortunately (maybe) no lats or triceps fatigue. Last summer my triceps always seemed to fatigue first. Is it that I have developed the triceps so they now outlast the other muscles? Is there something specically in my stroke that causes the biceps to become loaded when they shouldn't be? As far as swim training I do approx 1200-1400 yds 2x per week. I'll do 10 x 50 on 1 min while holding 52-53 per 50 or 5 x 100 on 2 min while holding 1:50.
In earlier posts you mentioned fatigue in the shoulders and biceps. I am a 65 yo getting back into tri after 5 years off. As Im swimming I find that my biceps are the first muscles to show signs of fatigue while swimming. My chest then shoulders follow. Unfortunately (maybe) no lats or triceps fatigue. Last summer my triceps always seemed to fatigue first. Is it that I have developed the triceps so they now outlast the other muscles? Is there something specically in my stroke that causes the biceps to become loaded when they shouldn't be? As far as swim training I do approx 1200-1400 yds 2x per week. I'll do 10 x 50 on 1 min while holding 52-53 per 50 or 5 x 100 on 2 min while holding 1:50.
Thanks for any advice.
Bill
Hi Bill,
Good question. If your biceps are fatiguing first, and you've been swimming regularly, it's likely something you're doing in your stroke.
My guess is that when you're pulling, you're bending your elbow a lot and contracting your biceps, facilitating fatigue.
So any action where you quickly 'close the elbow' is going to be the culprit, and that's typically not an effective pulling pattern.
It could be-
You pull and crossover a lot so that the elbow bends and the hand gets shallow as it comes across your body. As you pull back, the hand goes from deep to shallow very quickly and you pull by closing the elbow, using the biceps.
If you're doing either of those movements, you're also not going to be in a position where you can finish your stroke effectively, so your triceps probably aren't going to have the opportunity to do much work.
If you get the hand deeper than the elbow, and pull back without letting the elbow angle change, that should make a difference. If you do this, it will probably feel like you're pulling with a very straight arm, even if you're not.
Another strategy to try is to think about pulling your elbow back versus your hand back, which should make it less likely for the elbow to collapse
I have never given my core a second thought in many, many years of swimming. I can do exercises that strengthen those muscles, but how should I be mindful of them and use them when I swim free?
I would be happy to read, watch videos, and/or do drills to make this happen.
Some thoughts that are probably not shared by all-
Any control of the torso in the water is going to be more of a 'control' issue rather than a 'strength' issue, as the loads going through the torso are not very high as compared land-based sports, particularly if you're doing torso work on land.
If you have a lot of lateral torso movement, this is probably caused by lateral arm actions over and/or under the water. If this is happening, that's resulting in the torso movement and core strength/core control isn't going to over the come the torque created by crappy arm actions.
If your arms are all over the place, you're probably not doing a good job of managing your position in the water. Floating exercises like the ones listed below are helpful.
There's an element of torso control in rotation, but it's more about timing and making sure everything 'stays together' more than anything else. I like the to exercises below for improving timing because the nature of the arm recoveries make it difficult to really mess up the timing.
Beyond that, a little light bracing does the trick, and exercises like these more or less require that.
My biggest problem with a focus on the core is that it's nebulous. You can't see it and and you can't really know if it's being done well (coach or athlete).
If the body is aligned (horizontally and lateral) and the timing of the rotation is good, you're doing what you need to do. If you're not, it's probably not a 'core issue' but something else is causing the loss of alignment.
I've yet to hear a compelling argument for what else it would add. If others have concrete ways of demonstrating an impact, please feel free to share. I'd love to hear it.
1. I had forgotten the underwater recovery drills, and have never thought about the alternating over/underwater drill. 2. I will try the ball/jellyfish drills, but feel like my photo will end up on a subreddit if I do. 3. I am not hearing advice like: elongate your hips, rotate your shoulders but not your hips (for example), and I am hearing, "a little light bracing" (which I assume is akin to "engaging your core") is what's necessary to think about, and that other aspects of a stroke, especially arms, deserve the most focus.
1. I had forgotten the underwater recovery drills, and have never thought about the alternating over/underwater drill. 2. I will try the ball/jellyfish drills, but feel like my photo will end up on a subreddit if I do. 3. I am not hearing advice like: elongate your hips, rotate your shoulders but not your hips (for example), and I am hearing, "a little light bracing" (which I assume is akin to "engaging your core") is what's necessary to think about, and that other aspects of a stroke, especially arms, deserve the most focus.
All best, Andrew Moss
With 3, another way to think about it is as follows. Rather than worrying about what muscles are working, think about what needs to happen. To reduce drag, you need to move through the water as cleanly as possible-
1. The spine needs to remain relatively straight so that the hips/feet/legs stay in line on the surface of the water, maintaining horizontal alignment. 2. The spine needs to remain relatively straight rather than bending side to side, maintaining lateral alignment.
Using you core is about keep the spine rigid enough to accomplish that tasks, and learning how to make that happen with as little effort as possible.
For #1, the floating exercises I linked in my previous post and elsewhere in the thread are useful for that, and the exercises Klehner mentioned in this thread can be useful as well for you or anyone else is unfamiliar with how to keep some tension in the backside.
For #2, it's a much about removing the reasons that you're losing alignment. Arm actions that are all over the place are going to make it very difficult to stay aligned, as well as breathing actions that are all over the place. Provided you're not totally relaxed through your torso, these are causing loss of lateral alignment more than anything else.
As for rotating the shoulders while not rotating the hips, the shoulders do tend to move more than the hips (although the hips still move). You can watch this happen on video and it's been demonstrated in research. However, it's something that just tends to 'happen' and the degree to which it happens changes as you change your speed. I wouldn't try to control it too much. Just focus on staying in line and it tends to take care of itself, especially if you play with those exercises I showed you.
In summary, keep is simple and focus on outcomes more than anything else. You need to move through the water straight and you need to learn the skills that allow you do to accomplish that, and remove the movements that prevent you from doing so. That's going to be a lot more productive than trying to figure out how to improve your core when you're swimming. If you learn to do #1 and #2, you're going to be just fine and your core is going to be doing what it needs to do.
Hope that helps and let me know if you have follow up questions.
Hey Andrew. I've got a couple of questions for you that I'm almost embarrassed to ask as they seem so basic (but likely so fundamental) I skipped over them teaching myself to swim & it's now hurting my progress.
A little background: I've been in & around water my whole life (53yo), but started *competitive* swimming a year ago as part of finding triathlon. I've self taught from threads like yours & SnappingT's here on ST, YouTube, podcasts, etc. I got to ~1:40/100y pace over 1k+yds in 25y pool with buoyancy shorts last year & carried that over into my three OW wetsuit races (a sprint & two Olympics). I did this while carrying a 1.5yr long non-union broken right clavicle. It was painful & I'm sure affected my stroke development, but it was what it was & wasn't an excuse to not learn, train & compete. My collarbone was rebuilt in late Sept '22 (hip bone graft, plate, screws, etc.) & I was forced out of the water for 12weeks while recovering & rebuilding ROM & strength. I've just been able to get back in the water 3ish weeks ago. Knowing my fore/aft balance (i.e., drag) was being band-aided by the buoyancy shorts, wetsuit or a pull-buoy when I used them last year, I've focused on not using any of those aids since getting back to the pool.
Fore/Aft balance: I've read your earlier posts about pushing your chest deeper in the water to help get your body more level. I also read the posts about arching your back by pushing your belly deeper in relation to your chest and ankles. I tried both approaches last week & both resulted in dramatic speed increases via assumed drag reduction; dramatic as in from ~1:50/100 pace to ~1:20/100 pace dramatic, i.e., huge improvement.
For me, pushing my chest down was easier muscularly but also came with an uncomfortable amount of water in my mouth at least every other breath, if not every breath, which punched my anxiety & heart rate way up creating a negative impact on my endurance. To get my breaths as "clean" as I could, it seems to entail either more head rotation, more body rotation, and/or more head elevation while breathing (both goggle lenses out of the water). I learned to keep my vision down early on last year, as it was easy to feel the drag of high head angle, so I'm reluctant to lift my head at all.
Arching my back (belly down, feet up) is definitely harder for me but allows cleaner one-goggle lens in the water breathing.
First question is: any comments on the above?
Second question: Going all the way back to the basics (that I'm now confident I skipped over getting started)... should I be able to float on my stomach, legs up, "balanced", without moving? I seem to recall seeing a video of someone doing this & I was impressed. I remember trying it (last year) & being completely unsuccessful leading me to think it must have been a parlor trick. The 2% smarter me today is now pretty sure I "passed Go & didn't collect $200" and I'm more draggy because of it. What do you think?
Great to see that you’ve made some really big improvements. That’s awesome.
It sounds like you’re definitely on the right track. Everyone is built a little differently, and while the principles remain consistent from person to person, the specific application and what YOU have to do to make it work are going to be a little different.
Rather than thinking about the two strategies as either/or figure how to apply the concepts for you in a way that feels easiest and is fastest. Your lungs are what allow you to float. If you’re not creating support from them, you’ll struggle with your position. Additionally, if you don’t have the tension in your back/legs to hold them up, you’re not going to be able to create an effective position either. How to manage that combination for you is what’s important, and it sounds like you’re figuring that out.
This exercise works on that combination. You establish some stability and then you have to create tension in the back and legs to raise the legs up. If this is manageable, work on doing it in an ‘I’ position instead of an ‘X’ for more of a challenge.
If you’re feeling really weak in the lower back/hips, doing some of the exercises on land that Klehner recommended could be helpful.
Some people, because of their anatomy, are going to be anatomy are going to be able to float right on the surface. And some are not. While there is skill involved and anyone can improve, for some, the final product will be better than others. The bigger issue is being able to establish a level of comfort in the water and being able to work to manage position. Working to improve in this area is worth it. Rather than ‘starting over’ just consistently incorporate some of this type of work into your practices.
Thanks for your feedback & link to your videos Andrew. And, I understand what you're saying about what's best for me might not be exactly "this" but something close. This all helps and, yes, I have more work to do to find my balance.
Thanks for your feedback & link to your videos Andrew. And, I understand what you're saying about what's best for me might not be exactly "this" but something close. This all helps and, yes, I have more work to do to find my balance.
My pleasure. Checkout some of the other exercises on that playlist. Improving at several different ones will be of valuable in addition to getting really good at one or two.
I’m not a fast swimmer, but I can float. I learned in scuba diving that you can exhale a little and breath in again. This expands your lungs so you hold more air. Personally, I’ve found while swimming if I do this at the beginning of a swim I float better. Of course once I’m into the swim I try to exhale and inhale the same volume.
Does this make sense or is it a placebo affect? Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer. But I'm learning and making progress.
I'm 41, started to learn swimming probably 5 years ago. prior to that I was never able to swim 10m in pool or open water. I had a good Tri coach and worked quite hard with him with few sessions plus swimming two times or so a week. I was able to swim for 1 hour or so in the pool but always very tiring and very slow, my main issue is the technique in general and breathing is my biggest thing. I stopped for almost two years due to COVID, being lazy ...etc. and I'm back in the pool now. I did two Tri races but I always keep myself in the enticer distance and most of the time I'm the last one on the swim (300m) almost 3:00/100m
I wonder what direction I should go here?
Should I have a dedicated swim classes? I asked the Tri club coach and he advised me to come down to the pool and join the training it may help but I'm not too sure is doing drills with other swimmers would help or have specific lessons?
Also, in my age and abilitiy how many swims I should to improve? I would like to improve my swim so I'm not drained after a 1km swim with enough rests!
I’m not a fast swimmer, but I can float. I learned in scuba diving that you can exhale a little and breath in again. This expands your lungs so you hold more air. Personally, I’ve found while swimming if I do this at the beginning of a swim I float better. Of course once I’m into the swim I try to exhale and inhale the same volume.
Does this make sense or is it a placebo affect?
Sure. More air is going to help. That's one of the reasons that getting control of your breathing is important.
If someone is unable to regulate their breathing while swimming, not only are they going to have to try to swim while breathing frantically, they'll also ride lower in the water, making the whole situation even worse.
I'm 41, started to learn swimming probably 5 years ago. prior to that I was never able to swim 10m in pool or open water. I had a good Tri coach and worked quite hard with him with few sessions plus swimming two times or so a week. I was able to swim for 1 hour or so in the pool but always very tiring and very slow, my main issue is the technique in general and breathing is my biggest thing. I stopped for almost two years due to COVID, being lazy ...etc. and I'm back in the pool now. I did two Tri races but I always keep myself in the enticer distance and most of the time I'm the last one on the swim (300m) almost 3:00/100m
I wonder what direction I should go here?
Should I have a dedicated swim classes? I asked the Tri club coach and he advised me to come down to the pool and join the training it may help but I'm not too sure is doing drills with other swimmers would help or have specific lessons?
Also, in my age and abilitiy how many swims I should to improve? I would like to improve my swim so I'm not drained after a 1km swim with enough rests!
appreciate any guidance.
Ahmed
Hi Ahmed,
If you want to improve, the biggest thing is to start looking for solutions, which is what you’re doing.
I would give the Tri Club training a shot. While it may or may not be optimal for you, you’ll have some external accountability and feedback. You’ll also be taking the leap and making the commitment to get better. If it doesn’t work out, you’ll be one step closer to figuring out what will work.
I don’t think your age is relevant, certainly not at your performance level. You can improve significantly. As for how many swims, more exposure is going to be better. You’ll learn and improve faster when you practice more often.
If breathing is a major issue for you, and you’re swimming 3:00/100m, the floating exercises I referenced above, as well as some simple bobbing exercises should help you begin the process of learning to get your breathing under control.
While these skills won’t necessarily improve your freestyle directly, although they may, it will be difficult to improve your freestyle without this foundation. These are activities you can work on by yourself.
I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any follow up questions.
Thanks so much andrew for taking the time to reply. I will give the Tri training a go and see how it's going. Thanks for sharing your videos as well, will practice it.
I did my first Masters swim yesterday with a new coach. To fix my technique I now kick...a lot...and hard...lol. My usual 2500-4000 meters was over at 800 meters. I've always been a 2-beat kicker concentrating on 70.3-140.6 racing.
How long does it typically take to develop the muscle fibers, or endurance, to kick strong without being exhausted? My legs start burning 3/4 of the way down a 50 meters pool. It's not long and I'm a total mess and can't even swim easy, let alone hard. I'm 48 y/o male. http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
As a general rule for the legs, quality is more important than quantity. Over time, build the volume and the duration.
Here are some strategies you could use.
1. If you have control over it, using shorter distances will be more effective. You’ll stand a much better chance of learning to sustain the legs if you get intermittent breaks.
2. Hold the kick until you can’t, then swim with minimal kicking, then add the kick back until you can’t, then swim with minimal kicking, etc.
3. Do #2 preemptively. If you have 8x100s, start with 25 great legs + 75 minimal kicking. When you feel ready, go 50+50, then 75+25, then all 100s.
4. Perform some sets ‘on’, some sets ‘off.
Over time, progressively increase the amount of time you spent fully using the legs. Eventually, you’ll get there. If possible, I would avoid struggling with it. You’re better off doing it really well or not all.
Andrew, You seem to be responding pretty quickly to others...here's my issue and swim question: I am pretty sure that I am swimming with flexed quad muscles and when I get from water to bike I'm under biking and then the legs are crampy or ready to cramp come the run.
Can you try to describe how someone should be kicking to propel while not taxing the legs. I feel like my stroke is pretty decent, and my kick is "ok" minus the straining part. I wish I had swam as a kid to get a better feel.
When I do kick sets, my legs are burning by the time I get to the wall and I feel like it takes me forever to get there....45 seconds for a 25 YARDS!
Andrew, You seem to be responding pretty quickly to others...here's my issue and swim question: I am pretty sure that I am swimming with flexed quad muscles and when I get from water to bike I'm under biking and then the legs are crampy or ready to cramp come the run.
Can you try to describe how someone should be kicking to propel while not taxing the legs. I feel like my stroke is pretty decent, and my kick is "ok" minus the straining part. I wish I had swam as a kid to get a better feel.
When I do kick sets, my legs are burning by the time I get to the wall and I feel like it takes me forever to get there....45 seconds for a 25 YARDS!
Advice? (Any knowledgeable swimmers can respond).
Does it happen when you use a pull buoy? If you don’t know, find out.
If it still happens, it’s likely a ‘perpetual tension’ issue rather than a ‘kicking’ issue. You’re going to need to learn how to relax the legs, independent of kicking. I would do some pulling where the only focus is on having ZERO tension in the legs.
If it doesn’t happen when you pull, it’s a result of how you kick.
If that’s the case, you’re going to need to learn how to take the pressure off your legs and minimize the effort you put into kicking.
To do so, you’re going to need to learn use your lungs and/or learn to hold up the legs with the BACK of the legs rather than kicking with the quads.
After practicing these skills, working on controlling your torso to keep everything in line, while kicking as little as possible, with as little tension as possible.
I’m not sure exactly what you will need to do to get the legs to let go. However, if you learn to control your position in the water with your torso, that gives you the best chance. If the buoy works, practice with that as well so you can FEEL the lack of tension, then try to re-create that sensation when swimming.
Once you can do that, start adding some intensity back into the swimming WITHOUT picking up the legs.
If you can figure how to get the cramping to go away by kicking less, THEN you can worry about figuring how to kick normally without cramping. Minimizing the kick probably won’t hurt your swimming. However, crampy legs WILL kill the bike/run. First things first.
If none of that works, or if you want to try something unorthodox from the start. I have several swimmers who swear by mustard packets to prevent cramping (seriously). I think it works similar to the mechanism as the product Hotshot, but much cheaper. Worth a shot if you can stomach it!
Let me know if that makes sense. Give it a shot and let me know how it goes.
Hi Andrew, have really appreciated your tips etc in this post. Was just wondering if you have any advice for working on the "back half" of the stroke as such. By way of background, adult onset swimmer, CSS currently around 1:30/100m long course. Swim with a great squad. Recently, whilst swimming with some faster squad members, I was struggling to hang onto the toes of our lane lead. For whatever reason, on our last lot of 100's I focused on completing the back end of the stroke and pushing my palm towards the back of the pool behind me. It seemed to make a massive difference, whereby I was able to hold onto his toes and it just felt like I was cruising. It seemed I was not really completing the stroke properly and potentially losing 4-5 secs/100m just by exiting too early etc. I was wondering if this is something you see commonly, and if you have any drills or tips you recommend for that portion of the stroke? I certainly feel it in my triceps more and also certainly feel a lot more connection between my hips, my kick and my shoulders with this. So far the boost in pace seems to hold in my subsequent sessions, I certainly feel that "push" in my triceps.
Hi Andrew, have really appreciated your tips etc in this post. Was just wondering if you have any advice for working on the "back half" of the stroke as such. By way of background, adult onset swimmer, CSS currently around 1:30/100m long course. Swim with a great squad. Recently, whilst swimming with some faster squad members, I was struggling to hang onto the toes of our lane lead. For whatever reason, on our last lot of 100's I focused on completing the back end of the stroke and pushing my palm towards the back of the pool behind me. It seemed to make a massive difference, whereby I was able to hold onto his toes and it just felt like I was cruising. It seemed I was not really completing the stroke properly and potentially losing 4-5 secs/100m just by exiting too early etc. I was wondering if this is something you see commonly, and if you have any drills or tips you recommend for that portion of the stroke? I certainly feel it in my triceps more and also certainly feel a lot more connection between my hips, my kick and my shoulders with this. So far the boost in pace seems to hold in my subsequent sessions, I certainly feel that "push" in my triceps.
Before you read anything else after this, remember this key takeaway- keep doing what you’re doing!
This is a great example of why it’s so important to keep track of performance as often as possible using stroke counts and speed (or in your case noticing that you were more easily keeping up).
Subjective, it felt like you were ‘cruising’, yet objectively you were swimming much faster. If you weren’t paying attention to performance, you wouldn’t have noticed the improvement.
That’s why it’s CRITICAL to pay attention to performance, even if the focus is on skill. You never know what you’ll pick up by chance. The more you pay attention, the more often this happens.
So, keep doing what you’re doing as it appears to be repeatable. HOWEVER, if you notice that the strategy does not consistently work from an objective perspective, then you may be overdoing it.
Relative to your question…
I see a lot of people that pull wide and slide out to the side, especially in the back end of the stroke. Doing so takes the pressure off the water and doesn’t do much for propulsion. This likely happens because it’s easier to do. People don’t have the strength, the fitness, etc to hold the back of their stroke. Sliding out of the side also allows for a faster stroke rate because it take less time, and that ‘feels’ faster to many.
Fixing it is mostly just a focus on pulling straight back. For many that might FEEL like they are crossing over under their body or puling really far back.
GENERALLY SPEAKING, a ‘full’ pull does not include full extension of the elbow. You almost never see this in elite freestylers. HOWEVER, my guess is that you’re not actually do that, it just FEELS like it, so keep doing what you’re doing.
An exercise like this is good as a basic starting point for learning how to just focus on pulling back. You can do it with or without a buoy. At first a buoy can be helpful because you can focus on the arm action rather than worrying about body position. I like to have people work on lowering their stroke count with an exercise like this as it forces them to do something different. You can also pair it with some of the different hand/paddle positions I’ve mentioned earlier.
Hi Andrew, have really appreciated your tips etc in this post. Was just wondering if you have any advice for working on the "back half" of the stroke as such. By way of background, adult onset swimmer, CSS currently around 1:30/100m long course. Swim with a great squad. Recently, whilst swimming with some faster squad members, I was struggling to hang onto the toes of our lane lead. For whatever reason, on our last lot of 100's I focused on completing the back end of the stroke and pushing my palm towards the back of the pool behind me. It seemed to make a massive difference, whereby I was able to hold onto his toes and it just felt like I was cruising. It seemed I was not really completing the stroke properly and potentially losing 4-5 secs/100m just by exiting too early etc. I was wondering if this is something you see commonly, and if you have any drills or tips you recommend for that portion of the stroke? I certainly feel it in my triceps more and also certainly feel a lot more connection between my hips, my kick and my shoulders with this. So far the boost in pace seems to hold in my subsequent sessions, I certainly feel that "push" in my triceps.
Before you read anything else after this, remember this key takeaway- keep doing what you’re doing!
This is a great example of why it’s so important to keep track of performance as often as possible using stroke counts and speed (or in your case noticing that you were more easily keeping up).
Subjective, it felt like you were ‘cruising’, yet objectively you were swimming much faster. If you weren’t paying attention to performance, you wouldn’t have noticed the improvement.
That’s why it’s CRITICAL to pay attention to performance, even if the focus is on skill. You never know what you’ll pick up by chance. The more you pay attention, the more often this happens.
So, keep doing what you’re doing as it appears to be repeatable. HOWEVER, if you notice that the strategy does not consistently work from an objective perspective, then you may be overdoing it.
Relative to your question…
I see a lot of people that pull wide and slide out to the side, especially in the back end of the stroke. Doing so takes the pressure off the water and doesn’t do much for propulsion. This likely happens because it’s easier to do. People don’t have the strength, the fitness, etc to hold the back of their stroke. Sliding out of the side also allows for a faster stroke rate because it take less time, and that ‘feels’ faster to many.
Fixing it is mostly just a focus on pulling straight back. For many that might FEEL like they are crossing over under their body or puling really far back.
GENERALLY SPEAKING, a ‘full’ pull does not include full extension of the elbow. You almost never see this in elite freestylers. HOWEVER, my guess is that you’re not actually do that, it just FEELS like it, so keep doing what you’re doing.
An exercise like this is good as a basic starting point for learning how to just focus on pulling back. You can do it with or without a buoy. At first a buoy can be helpful because you can focus on the arm action rather than worrying about body position. I like to have people work on lowering their stroke count with an exercise like this as it forces them to do something different. You can also pair it with some of the different hand/paddle positions I’ve mentioned earlier.
That’s a good start point, and you can progress things from there. I always suggest people mix in regular freestyle to recreate the same sensations.
Hope that helps,
Andrew
That's fantastic advice thanks Andrew!! The squad I swim in uses Tempo Trainers for everything basically so I always have a good gauge in relation to how I am going, plus I am a bit of a data nerd. I agree re what you say about the triceps, I think it is more just feeling like it is coming into play and being used now when it was not really being used before. The drill looks great, I will be sure to try that when I am on my own in the pool!! I will keep you posted as to how the times are tracking, but presenting when swimming around threshold intensity I am 3-4 sec/100m faster. Today will be interesting as it is an endurance set and so I will be able to get a good idea how I cope with that on my current CSS time. If things are as expected, I should hopefully be making any target times with a little bit gas left in the tank!
Hi Andrew, have really appreciated your tips etc in this post. Was just wondering if you have any advice for working on the "back half" of the stroke as such. By way of background, adult onset swimmer, CSS currently around 1:30/100m long course. Swim with a great squad. Recently, whilst swimming with some faster squad members, I was struggling to hang onto the toes of our lane lead. For whatever reason, on our last lot of 100's I focused on completing the back end of the stroke and pushing my palm towards the back of the pool behind me. It seemed to make a massive difference, whereby I was able to hold onto his toes and it just felt like I was cruising. It seemed I was not really completing the stroke properly and potentially losing 4-5 secs/100m just by exiting too early etc. I was wondering if this is something you see commonly, and if you have any drills or tips you recommend for that portion of the stroke? I certainly feel it in my triceps more and also certainly feel a lot more connection between my hips, my kick and my shoulders with this. So far the boost in pace seems to hold in my subsequent sessions, I certainly feel that "push" in my triceps.
Before you read anything else after this, remember this key takeaway- keep doing what you’re doing!
This is a great example of why it’s so important to keep track of performance as often as possible using stroke counts and speed (or in your case noticing that you were more easily keeping up).
Subjective, it felt like you were ‘cruising’, yet objectively you were swimming much faster. If you weren’t paying attention to performance, you wouldn’t have noticed the improvement.
That’s why it’s CRITICAL to pay attention to performance, even if the focus is on skill. You never know what you’ll pick up by chance. The more you pay attention, the more often this happens.
So, keep doing what you’re doing as it appears to be repeatable. HOWEVER, if you notice that the strategy does not consistently work from an objective perspective, then you may be overdoing it.
Relative to your question…
I see a lot of people that pull wide and slide out to the side, especially in the back end of the stroke. Doing so takes the pressure off the water and doesn’t do much for propulsion. This likely happens because it’s easier to do. People don’t have the strength, the fitness, etc to hold the back of their stroke. Sliding out of the side also allows for a faster stroke rate because it take less time, and that ‘feels’ faster to many.
Fixing it is mostly just a focus on pulling straight back. For many that might FEEL like they are crossing over under their body or puling really far back.
GENERALLY SPEAKING, a ‘full’ pull does not include full extension of the elbow. You almost never see this in elite freestylers. HOWEVER, my guess is that you’re not actually do that, it just FEELS like it, so keep doing what you’re doing.
An exercise like this is good as a basic starting point for learning how to just focus on pulling back. You can do it with or without a buoy. At first a buoy can be helpful because you can focus on the arm action rather than worrying about body position. I like to have people work on lowering their stroke count with an exercise like this as it forces them to do something different. You can also pair it with some of the different hand/paddle positions I’ve mentioned earlier.
That’s a good start point, and you can progress things from there. I always suggest people mix in regular freestyle to recreate the same sensations.
Hope that helps,
Andrew
Those "power pulls" are basically the breaststroke underwater pullout done over and over on the surface. IMO this is yet another argument for learning all 4 strokes in their "competitive form", e.g. very few "casual" breaststroke swimmers do the proper underwater pullout and first stroke. They just don't realize how much faster you are under the water. :) "Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Those "power pulls" are basically the breaststroke underwater pullout done over and over on the surface. IMO this is yet another argument for learning all 4 strokes in their "competitive form", e.g. very few "casual" breaststroke swimmers do the proper underwater pullout and first stroke. They just don't realize how much faster you are under the water. :)
Yep. That’s exactly it. The reason I like them on the surface is that they slow you down, allowing you to get a lot more repetitions in over a short period of time.
That's fantastic advice thanks Andrew!! The squad I swim in uses Tempo Trainers for everything basically so I always have a good gauge in relation to how I am going, plus I am a bit of a data nerd. I agree re what you say about the triceps, I think it is more just feeling like it is coming into play and being used now when it was not really being used before. The drill looks great, I will be sure to try that when I am on my own in the pool!! I will keep you posted as to how the times are tracking, but presenting when swimming around threshold intensity I am 3-4 sec/100m faster. Today will be interesting as it is an endurance set and so I will be able to get a good idea how I cope with that on my current CSS time. If things are as expected, I should hopefully be making any target times with a little bit gas left in the tank!
Good stuff.
Relative to you last comment, another value in keeping track of everything is that you can compare your speed to your effort. It’s not always about going faster. If you can go the same speed, but it’s easier, whether just perception or confirmed via lower heart rates, that’s a big win. This is especially true when the race isn’t over after the swim. If one isn’t keeping track, they’ll never even know.
Tempo trainers are great. While I’m not sure exactly how you use it, a cool trick is to set the stroke rate at something appropriate, then try to descend at the same stroke rate. Something like this.
6x100 Descend 1-3/4-6 all at the same stroke rate
The only way to go faster is to be more efficient with your stroke. You can also go faster by being more efficient off the walls. Even in triathlon where there are no walls, learning to create speed through better alignment is a good thing. It can be done over any distances and with any stroke rate.
I noticed that when I am swimming freestyle I have a tendency to fishtail slightly. What I mean is, when I am extending the right arm, my legs will be a little to the left of my centerline and my toes are not pointing directly behind me. It's not a major swing, but I assume it increases drag and indicates an inefficiency in my stroke. Any ideas as to what might cause it?
My guess is that it is a result of two flaws in my stroke. First, I have a tendency enter my hand just a little too close to the centerline. I'm not crossing over my head, but I'm not 100 percent in line with my shoulder; my hand is just a little closer to my head than I think it should be. I figure that could introduce a little side-to-side action.
The other flaw that I am working on is in my catch. My elbow angle is a little too wide and so my hand is outside where it should be, especially in the initial part of the pull. I'd say my elbow angle in the pull is 120-25 degrees rather than the 100-110 that I think is preferable. Maybe the outside in motion of my hand during the pull causes my legs to sway?
I'm no expert, so these are just guesses. Any input is welcome.
I noticed that when I am swimming freestyle I have a tendency to fishtail slightly. What I mean is, when I am extending the right arm, my legs will be a little to the left of my centerline and my toes are not pointing directly behind me. It's not a major swing, but I assume it increases drag and indicates an inefficiency in my stroke. Any ideas as to what might cause it?
My guess is that it is a result of two flaws in my stroke. First, I have a tendency enter my hand just a little too close to the centerline. I'm not crossing over my head, but I'm not 100 percent in line with my shoulder; my hand is just a little closer to my head than I think it should be. I figure that could introduce a little side-to-side action.
The other flaw that I am working on is in my catch. My elbow angle is a little too wide and so my hand is outside where it should be, especially in the initial part of the pull. I'd say my elbow angle in the pull is 120-25 degrees rather than the 100-110 that I think is preferable. Maybe the outside in motion of my hand during the pull causes my legs to sway?
I'm no expert, so these are just guesses. Any input is welcome.
I think you’re definitely on the right track.
‘Wiggling’, whether subtle or extreme, is always going to be a reaction to something else you’re doing.
With the hand entry it’s not just where it enters, but the path to get there. The momentum wide, low recovery is much more likely to cause the shoulders to go along for the ride, and the hips to go in the opposite direction, giving you the sway. In contrast, a more direct recovery won’t have that same problem. An entry close to the center can cause it, and a wide path to the same entry will make it worse.
Pushing out during the beginning of the stroke can also push the shoulders to the side, with the hips moving in the other direction.
The more direct the arm recoveries and the more direct the pulling actions, the less likely you are to experience alignment issues.
I wrote a brief article about it for 220Triathlon. If you search ‘wiggling 220Triathlon’ it should come up.
Sometimes what the head is doing can cause problems with the arms, which leads to the other stuff.
I'm an adult onset swimmer who has been at it for about 5 years. My first year or two I got some lessons, improved my fitness significantly and then rather plateaued. Since then I've been using lots of different videos and suggestions from folks to improve but hadn't seen a whole lot of growth overall. To be clear, I could certainly finish 1,000 yard swim a bit faster than I could 4 years ago but that was mostly down to just being fitter overall.
This past season I had 2 downright terrible open water swims to start of triathlons, one being my first 70.3. That swim was so bad that I rolled onto my back for a while, got out with quad spasms and considered just calling the race done at that point. I didn't and the rest of the race went well but these two swims made me decide that I needed to change. After taking a bit of time out of the pool to get my head right around it I started back up with my usual 3 swims per week for about 2 months with a focus on a few areas that I thought I needed to work on. These included improving my body rotation, my catch and working on being 'taut'--ie keeping my body long and straight rather than wet noodling it. I did a bunch of drills each workout -- much more than previously to focus on these areas.
Since then I've jumped into a masters swim group. The masters workouts have been great, have made me work on other strokes which seems to be helping my freestyle as well. This past week, in working on 'endurance freestyle' the coach focused on a couple of ideas. 1.(for myself and one other) improving our shoulder angle in the reach part of the stroke to extend further upon entry into the water 2. Building a 2 beat kick 3. Working on a 'gallop stroke'. For one reason or another the reach seemed to click pretty well for me and I was told that my stroke immediately looked much better! Moving into part 2 and 3 this seemed to continue, which is great. The questions that I have are: 1. How do I make sure that I am consistently 'reaching' to the right degree 2. How on earth do I keep this 2 beat kick without fins? It feels like my legs will sink without the movement. 3. Should I use the 'gallop' stroke, which feels good (and fast) all the time or should I build in time to practice that as well as the long, slow, stretchy version? 4. I've been avoiding doing math and tracking times this week with the idea that I may need to cement these skills before I worry about time and improvement. Is this the right approach and if so, how long do I avoid the clock and just focus on technique?
Lots of questions. Feel free to answer any that interest you!
I'm an adult onset swimmer who has been at it for about 5 years. My first year or two I got some lessons, improved my fitness significantly and then rather plateaued. Since then I've been using lots of different videos and suggestions from folks to improve but hadn't seen a whole lot of growth overall. To be clear, I could certainly finish 1,000 yard swim a bit faster than I could 4 years ago but that was mostly down to just being fitter overall.
This past season I had 2 downright terrible open water swims to start of triathlons, one being my first 70.3. That swim was so bad that I rolled onto my back for a while, got out with quad spasms and considered just calling the race done at that point. I didn't and the rest of the race went well but these two swims made me decide that I needed to change. After taking a bit of time out of the pool to get my head right around it I started back up with my usual 3 swims per week for about 2 months with a focus on a few areas that I thought I needed to work on. These included improving my body rotation, my catch and working on being 'taut'--ie keeping my body long and straight rather than wet noodling it. I did a bunch of drills each workout -- much more than previously to focus on these areas.
Since then I've jumped into a masters swim group. The masters workouts have been great, have made me work on other strokes which seems to be helping my freestyle as well. This past week, in working on 'endurance freestyle' the coach focused on a couple of ideas. 1.(for myself and one other) improving our shoulder angle in the reach part of the stroke to extend further upon entry into the water 2. Building a 2 beat kick 3. Working on a 'gallop stroke'. For one reason or another the reach seemed to click pretty well for me and I was told that my stroke immediately looked much better! Moving into part 2 and 3 this seemed to continue, which is great. The questions that I have are: 1. How do I make sure that I am consistently 'reaching' to the right degree 2. How on earth do I keep this 2 beat kick without fins? It feels like my legs will sink without the movement. 3. Should I use the 'gallop' stroke, which feels good (and fast) all the time or should I build in time to practice that as well as the long, slow, stretchy version? 4. I've been avoiding doing math and tracking times this week with the idea that I may need to cement these skills before I worry about time and improvement. Is this the right approach and if so, how long do I avoid the clock and just focus on technique?
Lots of questions. Feel free to answer any that interest you!
thanks
Congrats on the progress!
1. You’re going to have to learn to know what it feels like. Have your coach let you know when you’re doing it right, then internalize what that feels like. Then try to create a phrase for you to remember that’s associated with that feeling (maybe it’s ‘stretch’). Also don’t stress about whether it’s perfect. If it’s good enough and you’re making progress, you’re doing what you need to do.
2. Your legs sinking or not isn’t driven by the kick. If you’re legs are sinking, you need to get better. Learn to use your lungs to support you and create tension in your back keep the legs up.
3. If the gallop stroke is working for you, stick with it. You can still practice the longer stroke during warm-up/warm-down. It’s good to have some flexibility in how you swim and the timing you use.
4. Do both, just don’t let the clock drive what you do. Knowing how fast you are swimming is a great way to know if you’re skills are effective are not. If you can swim faster for the same effort, that’s progress. It becomes more a ‘focus on what you’re doing, then see what the outcome was’ approach rather than an ‘I need to go X time or else’ approach.
I've been reading this thread any trying to implement the recommendations to various degrees. There was a pretty big breakthrough through a few weeks of dedicated videos and reviewing (~18 months swimming, 1k scy at 15:16), but I'm still left with two big questions where my stroke seems to "work" but doesn't seems right.
--When going from the catch to the pull, I've really taken emphasis off of the catch and forcibly pushing back, almost like how you'd push yourself up onto the pool deck from the deep end. It kind of really feels like two separate motions, a lazy (but well placed) catch that just kind of drops the hand immediately turning into a strong push straight back. It's hard to see clearly in video where the transition takes place, but it feels like a well defined switch in the stroke. Is it worth trying to smooth this out? And if so, would you smooth it out by being more forceful on the catch or less forceful at the start of the pull?
--Arching back, specifically, with a flatter back the upper arm to spine angle is much flatter and my shoulders work noticeably harder to pull that arm to the flatter angle. It seems the real culprit for the arching back is the desire to keep the shoulder joint more extended and less flexed (at a lesser angle in relation to the spine). I'm guessing this is just something to get used to and keep working on?
I've been reading this thread any trying to implement the recommendations to various degrees. There was a pretty big breakthrough through a few weeks of dedicated videos and reviewing (~18 months swimming, 1k scy at 15:16), but I'm still left with two big questions where my stroke seems to "work" but doesn't seems right.
--When going from the catch to the pull, I've really taken emphasis off of the catch and forcibly pushing back, almost like how you'd push yourself up onto the pool deck from the deep end. It kind of really feels like two separate motions, a lazy (but well placed) catch that just kind of drops the hand immediately turning into a strong push straight back. It's hard to see clearly in video where the transition takes place, but it feels like a well defined switch in the stroke. Is it worth trying to smooth this out? And if so, would you smooth it out by being more forceful on the catch or less forceful at the start of the pull?
--Arching back, specifically, with a flatter back the upper arm to spine angle is much flatter and my shoulders work noticeably harder to pull that arm to the flatter angle. It seems the real culprit for the arching back is the desire to keep the shoulder joint more extended and less flexed (at a lesser angle in relation to the spine). I'm guessing this is just something to get used to and keep working on?
This thread is truly a goldmine.
Congrats on the progress.
1. What you are describing is pretty accurate. It's more of a passive repositioning. If it LOOKS like there are two distinct phases in the stroke. You probably want to smooth it out. If it only FEELS like you have two phases, I would keep it going as is. If you want to smooth it out focus on lessening the force of the pull rather than increase the catch.
Great insights!
2. Another great insight. My observation is that 'talent' in many swimmers is having the mobility to perform all of the different motions of the limbs WITHOUT compromising the position of the spine. They can keep the spine REALLY aligned while still doing everything else.
For you specifically, if you don't have the mobility in your shoulders, you have to compromise to be effective. Just about everyone has to do it to some degree. This can be improved a bit, but only so much as you can't change the shape of bones.
I took your advise and start the squads with the Tri club. Coach is very good and keep providing me with advise here and there but I know that I need some special attention so I joined stroke correction swim school. two weeks now but not feeling really great with the school coach, however will give it another two weeks and see. The Tri coach gave me an advise and need your comment please. Coach asked me to use snorkel with fins/buoy to focus only on my stroke.specifically my pull which seems not strong enough ( I push back so hard but not sure why it's not strong enough). After I fix my technique I need to worry about my breathing. does that make sense? any idea how the pull should looks like? I had too much water in my nose and lungs from the snorkel probably I should use nose clip next time. overall, I feel great that I'm back in the pool. Thanks again
I took your advise and start the squads with the Tri club. Coach is very good and keep providing me with advise here and there but I know that I need some special attention so I joined stroke correction swim school. two weeks now but not feeling really great with the school coach, however will give it another two weeks and see. The Tri coach gave me an advise and need your comment please. Coach asked me to use snorkel with fins/buoy to focus only on my stroke.specifically my pull which seems not strong enough ( I push back so hard but not sure why it's not strong enough). After I fix my technique I need to worry about my breathing. does that make sense? any idea how the pull should looks like? I had too much water in my nose and lungs from the snorkel probably I should use nose clip next time. overall, I feel great that I'm back in the pool. Thanks again
Great to hear that you've taken steps to improve your swimming and you've had some success.
It can be helpful to work on one skill at a time. Taking your breathing out of the equation can make it easier to work on improving your arm pull.
Sometimes when people say 'strong', it's not so much how much force is used, but how effective it is. You may be pulling 'hard', but not pulling 'well'.
Rather than what it 'looks' like, the pull should 'feel' straight back.
Snorkels can take a little time to get used to, but once you get the hang of it, you won't have any more problems with inhaling water.
Ultimately, you have to trust the path you take when working with a coach. It's fine to take a different direction if it's not working, but doing everything they suggest is the best way to get the results you want.
Don't know if you are still replying to this thread but just putting a few things out there
A few questions
Hand entry - do you reckon a thumb first (or thumb and first finger together) entry is a problem from a drag perspective, if it is not causing any shoulder issues? Or do you recommend pinky entry?
Caps - how much per 100m does a cap give you?
Six beat kick versus two beat kick - generally speaking for a pull dominant freestyler, how much speed can distance athletes get from learning a 6 beat kick over say 800 and upwards? Most of the top endurance swimmers swim the same speed if they kick or do not kick? Is it worth it?
Natural catch up timing versus gallop - do you prefer either timing for say 800 and upwards (without a wetsuit)? Or just work with what the athlete prefers, and try to improve either DPS or tempo as needed? Most of the top endurance swimmers swim either quite a close to catching up stroke or quite a gallop
Hand entry - do you reckon a thumb first (or thumb and first finger together) entry is a problem from a drag perspective, if it is not causing any shoulder issues? Or do you recommend pinky entry? I think ‘flat’ is most likely the safest bet, but unless there is an obvious issue with the entry, I tend to leave it alone. If the hand is entering relatively clean, and isn’t too angled, you should be good. I’ve never really heard great arguments for any particular entry. You see fast swimmers doing a bit of everything BUT they get the hand pretty flat right after entry.
Caps - how much per 100m does a cap give you?
I guess it depends on how much hair you have! I really don’t know, as it depends on how fast you’re swimming as well. I think it matters, and I would wear one for speed. However, if you’re in a hot environment, that can be an issue for some people, especially if they’re not used to it. If found it protected my hair from chlorine, so I always wore it.
Six beat kick versus two beat kick - generally speaking for a pull dominant freestyler, how much speed can distance athletes get from learning a 6 beat kick over say 800 and upwards? Most of the top endurance swimmers swim the same speed if they kick or do not kick? Is it worth it?
If you’re two beat kick is well integrated into the stroke, I think you’re good. If this kick isn’t integrated, then it can present a problem, and using a heavier kick can sometimes help with that. If someone wants to use a heavier kick, it’s KEY that they implement the kick WITHOUT slowing their rate. If that happens, they’ll like swim slower. And you better have a solid kick, or else what’s the point.
I think any swimmer should learn to effective 6-beat kick to be able to create speed. The top distance swimmers can CLOSE, and most are going to use the legs to do that. Sun Yang was a great example. Steady (but effective!) 2-beat kick most of the way, then would throw in the legs and bring it home.
Natural catch up timing versus gallop - do you prefer either timing for say 800 and upwards (without a wetsuit)? Or just work with what the athlete prefers, and try to improve either DPS or tempo as needed? Most of the top endurance swimmers swim either quite a close to catching up stroke or quite a gallop
I tend to NOT mess with the rhythm that someone has settled into. Changing that is always a difficult and potentially disastrous undertaking. As you said, my strong preference is to improve DPS/tempo without changing the rhythm. Sometimes, that will change the timing organically, which tends to be a much smoother process. I will only change the timing if it is obviously holding the swimmer back. Then I’ll the dice. Swimmers have been successful with both strategies, and there is probably a reason that a swimmer picks one over the other, and it likely has to do with their natural tendencies. I try to work with what they’ve got rather than against it.
Thanks for the reply - got me thinking about the kick since reading it
I don’t really have any other questions at the moment just a bunch of comments and observations
Which are too boring to anyone but myself
Mainly about kick creating a lot of drag, only worth the potential extra speed seemingly in the 800 and up for men and 400 and up for women
Back in the 80s the world record in the 400 was 2 beat but things changed a lot since then.
But wonder how fast the 2 beat kick men would go now - if the distance guys sprinted on their 2 beat strokes at 400 and 200s. Faster than the 80s but how much slower than the current times
Thanks for the reply - got me thinking about the kick since reading it
I don’t really have any other questions at the moment just a bunch of comments and observations
Which are too boring to anyone but myself
Mainly about kick creating a lot of drag, only worth the potential extra speed seemingly in the 800 and up for men and 400 and up for women
Back in the 80s the world record in the 400 was 2 beat but things changed a lot since then.
But wonder how fast the 2 beat kick men would go now - if the distance guys sprinted on their 2 beat strokes at 400 and 200s. Faster than the 80s but how much slower than the current times
Sun Yang set the 1500-m world record with a 2 beat kick for the first 1400-m and then a strong kick the last 100. In 2000, Massi Rosolino went 1:46/3:43 over 200/400 basically dragging his legs behind him.
I have a question about swim technique I'm hoping a ST expert can answer. My question is about the timing of the catch with the regard to taking a breath. For a right-side breather, does the left-arm catch start as the head finishes the breath and turns back toward the water? Put another way, what is the head doing when the catch starts?
I ask because I am not very good at EVF, or swimming for that matter. I notice that when I practice EVF on dryland, the slight rotation of shoulder and the dropping of my forearm rotates me from my side back toward being flatter on my belly. But when I saw myself on video, I noticed that I was starting the left arm catch while still rotating onto my left side and turning my head right to breathe. Maybe I work at cross purposes with myself. My left arm is trying to rotate my body back to flat while my core is still trying to turn onto the left side. My left hand sort of waves around as I start the catch and I struggle to get an EVF, maybe that's the reason.
I experimented with breathing a little earlier and quicker so that I pretty much complete the breath while my left arm was extended. I tried to not start the catch until I was turning my head back toward the water and my recovery arm was past my head. I did this by trying to think about a connection between my left elbow and my right shoulder-- the elbow goes up and shoulder comes forward to my ear.
It seemed to help, but I wanted to get a sense of whether I'm on the right track. I've watched a lot of videos and it seems like some swimmers are into the pull phase before their face is back in the water, while others start the catch and pull later so that the eyes are looking at the bottom of the pool when the pull starts.
from a wider perspective... you're swimming from "outside" to "in" meaning you are focusing on the arm movement being the driver for propulsion and breathing. Changing that perspective to "inside to out" thinking helps and answers your tech question.
The breath is timed w the rotation of the hips and shoulders. Rotation needs to be rhythmical and symmetrical. So breathing on either side should not be an issue. The answer and for improved feedback would be to start timing your breath w your rotation (not arms) and also breathing on both sides but primarily the "weak" side as your brain wiring has less experience to override. A final note, the quality of your inhale is dictated by the quality of your exhale, no matter the side you breath on... so consider and practice this as well.
from a wider perspective... you're swimming from "outside" to "in" meaning you are focusing on the arm movement being the driver for propulsion and breathing. Changing that perspective to "inside to out" thinking helps and answers your tech question.
The breath is timed w the rotation of the hips and shoulders. Rotation needs to be rhythmical and symmetrical. So breathing on either side should not be an issue. The answer and for improved feedback would be to start timing your breath w your rotation (not arms) and also breathing on both sides but primarily the "weak" side as your brain wiring has less experience to override. A final note, the quality of your inhale is dictated by the quality of your exhale, no matter the side you breath on... so consider and practice this as well.
Good luck
DaveD
Thank you for your response. I think that before I was swimming "outside to in", as you put it. A couple of months back, looking at video I noticed problems with my left arm extension and catch. Ever since I have spent a lot of time focusing on my arm trying to get it in the right spot, with modest success. I think the issue was, as you said, I was thinking about the "outside" too much.
This week, when realized the problem was more one of timing between my core rotation to breathe and the start of my catch, I made a pretty significant improvement. I dropped ~4 seconds per 100 on a 15*100 benchmark workout. I looked at the video from my most recent swim and my position is much more streamlined. My catch is more efficient (less excess motion, more straight back). It's still not great, but it's definitely better.
It's probably no great surprise to any swim coach, but it's remarkable to me that a change of timing can lead to such an improvement in body position. Without thinking about my arm at all, I seemed to have eliminated some of the flaws I spent so long trying to fix by thinking non-stop about my arm. Kind of ironic.
I have a question about swim technique I'm hoping a ST expert can answer. My question is about the timing of the catch with the regard to taking a breath. For a right-side breather, does the left-arm catch start as the head finishes the breath and turns back toward the water? Put another way, what is the head doing when the catch starts?
I ask because I am not very good at EVF, or swimming for that matter. I notice that when I practice EVF on dryland, the slight rotation of shoulder and the dropping of my forearm rotates me from my side back toward being flatter on my belly. But when I saw myself on video, I noticed that I was starting the left arm catch while still rotating onto my left side and turning my head right to breathe. Maybe I work at cross purposes with myself. My left arm is trying to rotate my body back to flat while my core is still trying to turn onto the left side. My left hand sort of waves around as I start the catch and I struggle to get an EVF, maybe that's the reason.
I experimented with breathing a little earlier and quicker so that I pretty much complete the breath while my left arm was extended. I tried to not start the catch until I was turning my head back toward the water and my recovery arm was past my head. I did this by trying to think about a connection between my left elbow and my right shoulder-- the elbow goes up and shoulder comes forward to my ear.
It seemed to help, but I wanted to get a sense of whether I'm on the right track. I've watched a lot of videos and it seems like some swimmers are into the pull phase before their face is back in the water, while others start the catch and pull later so that the eyes are looking at the bottom of the pool when the pull starts.
If I understand you, you are on the right track. If you're rotated to the right, you're going to struggle to get into an effective pulling position. Pulling too soon while breathing is a pretty common mistake, and swimmers end up in with a poor pull on that side. You'll often see 'sculling' on that hand as noted.
A faster breath and a more patient pull can help solve that issue. If you're slow in getting the head back down, many times it's because you're 'looking' or 'watching' what's happening over the surface, even if it's not conscious. Closing your eyes when you breath and then opening them back up when your head is back underwater can help.
If you're rotated to the right, you're going to struggle to get into an effective pulling position. Pulling too soon while breathing is a pretty common mistake, and swimmers end up in with a poor pull on that side. You'll often see 'sculling' on that hand as noted.
A faster breath and a more patient pull can help solve that issue. If you're slow in getting the head back down, many times it's because you're 'looking' or 'watching' what's happening over the surface, even if it's not conscious. Closing your eyes when you breath and then opening them back up when your head is back underwater can help.
Hope that was useful.
Andrew
Yes, that is helpful and you described my problem better than I did. My left arm looked like I was taught to start the catch with a quick scull. Despite knowing it was there, I couldn't eliminate that excess motion until I implemented a faster breath and more patient catch and pull.
daved wrote:
That sounds great. Did you "realize" this bc of what I wrote? or on your own? daved
I realized my problem by practicing EVF on the poolside and via single arm drills. I think that helped me start to feel physically the connection to my core. Then, when I watched myself on video I realized my core and catch were at odds with each other. Your explanation helped me think it through, understand how I my focus of the last couple of months on the arm and hand (rather than the core) was misdirected.
If you're rotated to the right, you're going to struggle to get into an effective pulling position. Pulling too soon while breathing is a pretty common mistake, and swimmers end up in with a poor pull on that side. You'll often see 'sculling' on that hand as noted.
A faster breath and a more patient pull can help solve that issue. If you're slow in getting the head back down, many times it's because you're 'looking' or 'watching' what's happening over the surface, even if it's not conscious. Closing your eyes when you breath and then opening them back up when your head is back underwater can help.
Hope that was useful.
Andrew
Yes, that is helpful and you described my problem better than I did. My left arm looked like I was taught to start the catch with a quick scull. Despite knowing it was there, I couldn't eliminate that excess motion until I implemented a faster breath and more patient catch and pull.
daved wrote:
That sounds great. Did you "realize" this bc of what I wrote? or on your own? daved
I realized my problem by practicing EVF on the poolside and via single arm drills. I think that helped me start to feel physically the connection to my core. Then, when I watched myself on video I realized my core and catch were at odds with each other. Your explanation helped me think it through, understand how I my focus of the last couple of months on the arm and hand (rather than the core) was misdirected.
