Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [Kalmarian] [ In reply to ]

Jan 17, 22 17:34

Post #51 of 242 (3437 views)

Kalmarian wrote:

You are missing the point. The major component in swimming is reducing drag. The major component in running is p/w. Have you never met "fat swimmer guy" who hasnt been to a pool, nor worked out, for 20 years. but still swims laps areound you? Sure, there is some strength required to move properly in the water, but going sub 1.20scy once doesnt require any fitness. Doing series like 10x100 is a different story but that wasnt what MasteringFlow claimed.

Nope. I literally have NEVER met 'fat Mr. never trained guy.' NEVER.

Now I've def met fat (or fattish) fast guy/gals in the water. Or gal. More than several, actually. When I was swimming at local pools and YMCAs, outside of masters, it wasn't common (rare actually) to see swimmers like this, so I did ask a few what they did for swimming.

Here are some of the answers I got:

- 60-120 minutes per day of swimming, for the last 20+ years
- Years of D1 swimming 'back in the day', actively coaching several highly competitive youth squads now, coaching a masters group of adults, AND training enough to race masters and train with ex-collegiate swimmers in another masters group
- Just left collegiate swimming 4 years ago (ok she def wasn't fat, but you get my point)
- Recent open water swim champion (I don't know what race/distance/etc.)

Zero of them were "huh - I literally haven't swam more than trivially in the past year." ALL of them were serious, diehard swimmers actively. NONE of them were out-of-shape with regards to swimming, even if they were carrying extra weight. It's just that in swimming, you don't have a weight penalty so you don't have to be as lean as a 21 year old runner to keep up when you're older and your genes are pushing you toward holding more and more body fat.

And I'll again cast serious doubt on that 1:20 takes no fitness. Again, it's no different than natural High school runners who run sub 17s - for them, 7 minute miles are a joke, it's literally slower than hobby jogging for them. But for an average ability age group triathlete, and even a good one it's faster than race pace. (I finish in the top 5% of overall run splits regularly, and 7 min/miles is a pretty firm effort for me, and is outright hard for most of the year outside of peaking.) If you're a natural-ability swimmer, you too may find 1:20s a joke. But look the swimmers who show up to most masters groups in most places (not just the 'elite' ones) - 1:20s are a hard effort for most of them. It's hard for me to believe that all these thousands and thousands of die hard pure adult masters swimmers can't swim at 'no effort' pace for most of their swim given that they swim year-round, seriously.

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [ianmo80] [ In reply to ]

Jan 17, 22 17:36

Post #52 of 242 (3434 views)

ianmo80 wrote:

Hi Andrew,

Just recently had a shoulder op to repair a tear, remove cysts and move the bicep tendon so swimming "normally" is out for me for a while.

I plan to start heading to the pool to work on my kicking and maybe some one arm drills. What type of session would give me the best bang for my buck, so to speak? Any recommendations on drills/distances etc.

Thanks in advance if you have time to answer this, since it's not strictly technique :)

Edited to say: my kicking has always been diabolical, or at least non-existent, so I am looking at this as an opportunity to fix a longstanding weakness. Also, my injured arm was my "stronger" arm, I always felt my left arm was under powered and often contributed less to my overall stroke, so again a chance to iron out any issues with that arm before I swim properly and begin the catch up to a full stroke.

Sorry to hear that. That sucks.

I've dealt with a lot of injured kids over the years. Here are my suggestions.

1. I would spend a lot of time working on managing body position and floating. Here are some sample exercises. Very few people work on these and most people should. Now if you are already swimming pretty fast (let me know!), this might not be that important for you. If,you aren't, they can help a lot.

https://drive.google.com/...5Yg/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/...moy/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/...6S7/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/...ux9/view?usp=sharing

2. I would definitely work on 1 arm stuff. It will make the transition back to regular swimming much easier. There is probably some cross-transfer between the limbs and just moving through the water is something that should be practiced. Do drills and just swim 1 arm. Time yourself on stuff and try to get faster. It will help when you return to health.

3. Kicking- Are you unable to run/bike because of the arm? If so, I would DEFINITELY kick. Do everything you can to maintain the fitness of your legs. If not, I would probably focus my legs on those disciplines. I don't think kicking is going to make a big difference in your swimming unless you are competing in short events like pool races (i am guessing not) or you are a high level swimmer (correct me if this is the case). If you're able to run and bike, I would focus more on the floating and the one arm stuff (training it as well as pure skill).

4. Clear it with your doctor first- then whatever movement you can do PAIN FREE in the water with the recovering arm will help speed the recovery.

If you decide to kick, take this approach-

Start with short distances and keep the rest periods more open. Kick HARD. Over time, extend the distances. With all the people I have worked with, poor kickers always respond better to this approach than doing extended kick sets with short rest. I am not sure why, but this has been my experience. This is true of endurance athletes as much as it is true of sprinters.

Again, if you can't do anything on land, work HARD on the kicking. It will do a better job of maintaining your overall fitness.

I would take a similar approach to 1 arm stuff. Do whatever skill work you feel is appropriate to you, then add some 1-arm sets that are 'training'. Focus more on intensity and give yourself more rest. This seems to work better for ENDURANCE.

Let me know how that sounds to you based upon where you're at and your experience.

If you have follow-up questions based on context, shoot them my way.

If anyone has training questions, start another thread and I would be happy to provide my perspective.

Andrew

http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 17, 22 17:56

Post #53 of 242 (3429 views)

Hey Andrew,

Thanks for the discussion. I find it fascinating. I went to your website and read a bunch of your articles as well. For video analysis, do you do them or do you have a team that does them? Also, what do you think of form goggles as a training and learning tool?

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 0:25

Post #54 of 242 (3404 views)

Once again, you are mixing swimming and running. Please, just dont. Also, I have a hard time beliving that you finish in the overall top 5% of run splits with 7min mile unless you do an Ironman. But that is a different discussion.

Regarding fat swimmer guy: cant tell if you are trolling but since we are using anecdotical evidence, the CEO at my company (at 49y/o and 5.8/255) got back from a 3 months break from the pool and did a 1.12 100m. He was gassed afterwards, but he gets gassed from climbing the stairs too. Sure he cant do series like 10x100m @ 1.45 coming in at 1.25 until he has swum for a few weeks, since fitness comes into play. Put him on a bike though and he cant do 200w.

I dont know if you go to Walmart master groups, or if I found an outlier, but the one I attended consisted of ex swimmers, and no one there swam the times you claim to see.

Somehow I get the feeling that you want an excuse for yourself, for not being fast, and it cant be that you dont understand how to move. After all, you are a smart person, so how can you not get how to do it properly?

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 4:18

Post #55 of 242 (3391 views)

MasteringFlow wrote:

Sorry to hear that. That sucks.

I've dealt with a lot of injured kids over the years. Here are my suggestions.

1. I would spend a lot of time working on managing body position and floating. Here are some sample exercises. Very few people work on these and most people should. Now if you are already swimming pretty fast (let me know!), this might not be that important for you. If you aren't, they can help a lot.

https://drive.google.com/...5Yg/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/...moy/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/...6S7/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/...ux9/view?usp=sharing

2. I would definitely work on 1 arm stuff. It will make the transition back to regular swimming much easier. There is probably some cross-transfer between the limbs and just moving through the water is something that should be practiced. Do drills and just swim 1 arm. Time yourself on stuff and try to get faster. It will help when you return to health.

3. Kicking- Are you unable to run/bike because of the arm? If so, I would DEFINITELY kick. Do everything you can to maintain the fitness of your legs. If not, I would probably focus my legs on those disciplines. I don't think kicking is going to make a big difference in your swimming unless you are competing in short events like pool races (i am guessing not) or you are a high level swimmer (correct me if this is the case). If you're able to run and bike, I would focus more on the floating and the one arm stuff (training it as well as pure skill).

4. Clear it with your doctor first- then whatever movement you can do PAIN FREE in the water with the recovering arm will help speed the recovery.

If you decide to kick, take this approach-

Start with short distances and keep the rest periods more open. Kick HARD. Over time, extend the distances. With all the people I have worked with, poor kickers always respond better to this approach than doing extended kick sets with short rest. I am not sure why, but this has been my experience. This is true of endurance athletes as much as it is true of sprinters.

Again, if you can't do anything on land, work HARD on the kicking. It will do a better job of maintaining your overall fitness.

I would take a similar approach to 1 arm stuff. Do whatever skill work you feel is appropriate to you, then add some 1-arm sets that are 'training'. Focus more on intensity and give yourself more rest. This seems to work better for ENDURANCE.

Let me know how that sounds to you based upon where you're at and your experience.

If you have follow-up questions based on context, shoot them my way.

If anyone has training questions, start another thread and I would be happy to provide my perspective.

Andrew

Awesome answer, thanks Andrew.

I'm the wrong side of 40, just, but have been making big gains in swimming (at least until the injury). My cruising pace pre injury for long intervals was circa 1:30mins / 100m, I'd had a couple of open water test swims including one race, and my time, with some low light affected navigation and an extra 300m was 1hr 02mins, so with a good course and some better navigation I'd have expected to be mid to late 50s for an Ironman leg. The last time I measured a CSS, in 2020, I was around 1:25, and I'd improved significantly from there. So overall I guess I am a slightly above average triathlon swimmer for my age, but nowhere near masters level or dedicated swimmer level. (I'm basing this "average" off contemporaries and Ironman times, so am prepared here for the swimming purists and studs to shoot me down in flames). This is all done without any kick. So whether or not focusing on the kick is important I don't know? I just want to get back in the pool and spend some time, so although I can run and bike, I will maybe have a kick session too, just to feel the water.

I will definitely try the floating, I spend a lot of time on my core, but I am still certain my legs sink, so some general awareness of my body in the water will be very good!

I will also definitely try the single arm drills, my good arm now (the left) was always my weakest, it felt significantly worse when swimming, so in the long run getting ahead of the curve with this arm could be very beneficial.

I swam twice after the injury, it was initially diagnosed as an impingement before they did a scan months later. I had a pretty respectable race on arguably the hardest swim course in triathlon, and this was done with a limited range of motion, and a lot of time lost to zig zagging. I had minimal pain in the water as long as I was careful with the reach and pull, but I seriously lacked power and swim fitness in the end.

Thanks again for the advice, I plan to head to the club meet tomorrow or Thursday, so can give some feedback then!

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [Kalmarian] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 5:37

Post #56 of 242 (3375 views)

Kalmarian wrote:

Once again, you are mixing swimming and running. Please, just dont. Also, I have a hard time beliving that you finish in the overall top 5% of run splits with 7min mile unless you do an Ironman. But that is a different discussion.

Regarding fat swimmer guy: cant tell if you are trolling but since we are using anecdotical evidence, the CEO at my company (at 49y/o and 5.8/255) got back from a 3 months break from the pool and did a 1.12 100m. He was gassed afterwards, but he gets gassed from climbing the stairs too. Sure he cant do series like 10x100m @ 1.45 coming in at 1.25 until he has swum for a few weeks, since fitness comes into play. Put him on a bike though and he cant do 200w.

I dont know if you go to Walmart master groups, or if I found an outlier, but the one I attended consisted of ex swimmers, and no one there swam the times you claim to see.

Somehow I get the feeling that you want an excuse for yourself, for not being fast, and it cant be that you dont understand how to move. After all, you are a smart person, so how can you not get how to do it properly?

Hah - typical ST. If you don't agree with someone, start attacking how fast they are. Classy.

I'm not fast for ST, but I'm happy with my performance. Well, at least outside of swimming! (I typically am a top 15% finisher in tri swims - which means I'll get my doors blown off by any 'real' swimmer, including children)

7 min mile is typically good enough to finish in the top 5-7% of run splits in local races. Not in national class races. But I'm faster than that - 7 min/miles is a z3 training pace for me.

Your CEO isn't a good example. 3 months is definitely not enough to lose 'all your swim fitness'. Swimming deteriorates the slowest of all sports due to non weight bearing. Even a year isn't likely enough for full deterioration (COVID showed this for many). But multiple years like my example above - those ex-D1 guys could barely hold 1:50/100 after 10+ years out of the pool completely on their first 100 back, for real.

Also, you're misinterpreting completely if you think I'm saying a good run/biker should be a good swimmer by default just due to x-over endurance. I'm of the opinion that there's almost no x-over of swimming to bike/run. It's not zero, but it's very, very low for most people. Lots of 2:45 marathon runners who even after years of swim training, are barely 1:50-2:00/100 in OWS even in an Oly.

The run/bike analogy is relevant only because I'm talking about natural ability. There is a bell curve of performance in EVERY sport. You can deny it as much as you want in swimming, but it's there. And competitive swimmers and college swimmers by definition are in the upper tail of that sport. Nobody who was born in that bottom tail of performance will have their parents drag them to swim practice 5x/wk when they are a kid just to get their doors blown off in a joe average swim program.

You'll never get me to believe 1:20/100m is a 'no-effort' swim for everyone, and that the only reason everyone cannot do it is because of technique limiters. I'll readily believe that it may be the case for a competitive/college-talent swimmer, but not for joe average triathlete. Heck, even in your case, in your CEO example you list 1:25/100 as being a workout-type effort for him - far from a no effort float.

Last edited by: lightheir: Jan 18, 22 5:45

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 6:24

Post #57 of 242 (3357 views)

As I start to fatigue at the end of a long set or the swim portion of a 70.3/ full distance IM , where should I feel it? I ask because I worry I do not use my lats enough. I tend to tire out in my upper back muscles and arms. I rarely finish a swim thinking my lats are tired. If I'm not using them enough, are there drills I can do to teach myself to engage them? FWIW, I've been working on EVF and sometimes as I'm doing that I try to think about using my lats as I pull back. That does seem to help a bit, at least while I'm doing the drill.

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 7:22

Post #58 of 242 (3343 views)

It was not meant as an attack. I try to understand where you are coming from, cause none of the things you write makes sense. The only explanation I could find was you being slow (in the water), and it was a question, not a statement.

My CEO swims 1-2/week at most, not the 60-120min/day you claimed was necessary. If there was any truth to your fitness theory, he would never be capable of going under 1.20 after 3 months of rest with that low of a volume. And why do you move the goal posts? The claim was 1.20 for 100y which translates to 1.28-1.29 scm.

There is no one saying that 1.20/100yards is a no effort swim for everyone. The claim was that if you cant go faster than that once, your technique is the limiter, as the fitness required is not much.

Dont know what to say about your natural ability. I think we have been down that road before and I seem to recall that we dont see eye to eye when it comes to "talent".

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 7:32

Post #59 of 242 (3338 views)

This thread has been very helpful.

Thanks for posting.

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [Kalmarian] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 8:21

Post #60 of 242 (3325 views)

Kalmarian wrote:

It was not meant as an attack. I try to understand where you are coming from, cause none of the things you write makes sense. The only explanation I could find was you being slow (in the water), and it was a question, not a statement.

My CEO swims 1-2/week at most, not the 60-120min/day you claimed was necessary. If there was any truth to your fitness theory, he would never be capable of going under 1.20 after 3 months of rest with that low of a volume. And why do you move the goal posts? The claim was 1.20 for 100y which translates to 1.28-1.29 scm.

There is no one saying that 1.20/100yards is a no effort swim for everyone. The claim was that if you cant go faster than that once, your technique is the limiter, as the fitness required is not much.

Dont know what to say about your natural ability. I think we have been down that road before and I seem to recall that we dont see eye to eye when it comes to "talent".

1-2 swims per week is easily maintenance for anybody with good swim history. I can maintain 95% of my speed at shorter distances on 1 swim per week. This means I can maintain the necessary swim fitness to hold technique at my speed for those short distances. This is a fitness, not a technique issue. Even at 1 swim per week. Ask me again after 3 years out of the pool - fuggetabout it - I'll barely go 2:20/100 (but it will likely come back fast, as those swim muscles do have memory.)

And about your bold statement above - someone posted this in this very thread. I'll admit that his definition of 'fitness' not equaling strength is not what I envision, but it's not too disimilar to what I'm saying. In that drag reduction is the dominant factor to swim 1:20scy

Kalmarian wrote:

You are missing the point. The major component in swimming is reducing drag. The major component in running is p/w. Have you never met "fat swimmer guy" who hasnt been to a pool, nor worked out, for 20 years. but still swims laps areound you? Sure, there is some strength required to move properly in the water, but going sub 1.20scy once doesnt require any fitness. Doing series like 10x100 is a different story but that wasnt what MasteringFlow claimed.

Last edited by: lightheir: Jan 18, 22 8:25

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 11:07

Post #61 of 242 (3303 views)

Hey Lightheir, this is Kalmarian.

"There is no fitness required to go sub 1.20 for 100yards once" is not the same as

"1.20/yards is a no effort swim for everyone"

There is a huge effort for my CEO to go 1.12/100m, which leaves him completely gassed due to his lack of fitness (remember, it is not required).

I am sorry but in my opinion you are just wrong, in your perception of what is needed for swimming, how well fitness stays for 3 months sitting most of the time, probably in training philosophy and most other things. I am pretty sure you feel the same way about me so let us let the thread be used for what it was supposed to be used for.

If you need the last word, go ahead. I won't answer.

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [AS88] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 13:10

Post #62 of 242 (3280 views)

AS88 wrote:

Hey Lightheir, this is Kalmarian.

"There is no fitness required to go sub 1.20 for 100yards once" is not the same as

"1.20/yards is a no effort swim for everyone"

There is a huge effort for my CEO to go 1.12/100m, which leaves him completely gassed due to his lack of fitness (remember, it is not required).

I am sorry but in my opinion you are just wrong, in your perception of what is needed for swimming, how well fitness stays for 3 months sitting most of the time, probably in training philosophy and most other things. I am pretty sure you feel the same way about me so let us let the thread be used for what it was supposed to be used for.

If you need the last word, go ahead. I won't answer.

I'll have the last word. I'm totally standard in my views of all things tri - I don't subscribe to any wacky concepts, EVEN in swimming.

There's nothing outlandish about believing that there is a real bell curve in swim ability, nor is there nothing outlandish in saying that fitness is a crucial component (but not replacement!) for technique in swimming.

What IS outlandish are ex-comp swimmers who completely deny any natural ability in their swimming or their peers, and also those who keep focusing exclusively on technique and denying how crucial fitness is to swim well at all speeds and distances.

And believe it or not - I obsess over technique in swimming. I can almost guarantee you that I've spent more time on self video analysis in the past 6 months that you probably have in the last 2 years. And I'm nitpicking every last detail to improve, even if I know quite a few of them are beyond my reach (like a Sun Yang EVF.) Just because I believe how fundamental and crucial swim fitness , does not in any way mean I'm ignoring technique - which it seems you believe from me.

Last edited by: lightheir: Jan 18, 22 13:10

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 13:13

Post #63 of 242 (3273 views)

Andrew,

I am enjoying following this thread and appreciate your insight. Just jumping on to say thank you.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [mdeck] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 17:05

Post #64 of 242 (3241 views)

mdeck wrote:

Hey Andrew,

Thanks for the discussion. I find it fascinating. I went to your website and read a bunch of your articles as well. For video analysis, do you do them or do you have a team that does them? Also, what do you think of form goggles as a training and learning tool?

I do the video analysis. The individual gets their own video, sends it to me, and I make up a report with suggestions, exercises to implement, etc. Send me a private message if you want more details.

Form Goggles-

I had not heard about this particular technology until you mentioned. However, I have played around with similar types of devices that provide similar information.

These comments are NOT about Form Goggles in particular, just this type of technology which provides swim metrics.

#1 I have had accuracy issues with some. That makes it difficult to use because you can't trust it.
#2 If you don't use the information to IMPROVE, it's useless.
#3 The most valuable numbers are stroke count and pace. You can get those yourself by counting your strokes and getting your times. It such a device makes it easier for you to get that information, that's a positive.
#4 The other stuff is interesting, but you can survive without it.

Some cool stuff you could do with the information

Can you go faster at the same stroke count?
Can you go faster at the same heart rate?
Can you go faster at the same stroke rate?

These are all things you can do to improve in subtle ways. At the same time, you can do a lot of these things without the technology with the use of a watch/pace clock, counting your strokes, or manually checking heart rate.

THAT BEING SAID, if you find that the information is accurate AND you actually use the information to try to improve, it certainly can't hurt and could be useful. Of course, it won't accelerate your progress if you don't have a good plan, are working on the right things, working hard, doing the appropriate training, etc.

Can't hurt, might help, not magic.

Hope that makes sense.

Andrew

http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [ianmo80] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 17:12

Post #65 of 242 (3236 views)

ianmo80 wrote:

Awesome answer, thanks Andrew.

I'm the wrong side of 40, just, but have been making big gains in swimming (at least until the injury). My cruising pace pre injury for long intervals was circa 1:30mins / 100m, I'd had a couple of open water test swims including one race, and my time, with some low light affected navigation and an extra 300m was 1hr 02mins, so with a good course and some better navigation I'd have expected to be mid to late 50s for an Ironman leg. The last time I measured a CSS, in 2020, I was around 1:25, and I'd improved significantly from there. So overall I guess I am a slightly above average triathlon swimmer for my age, but nowhere near masters level or dedicated swimmer level. (I'm basing this "average" off contemporaries and Ironman times, so am prepared here for the swimming purists and studs to shoot me down in flames). This is all done without any kick. So whether or not focusing on the kick is important I don't know? I just want to get back in the pool and spend some time, so although I can run and bike, I will maybe have a kick session too, just to feel the water.

I will definitely try the floating, I spend a lot of time on my core, but I am still certain my legs sink, so some general awareness of my body in the water will be very good!

I will also definitely try the single arm drills, my good arm now (the left) was always my weakest, it felt significantly worse when swimming, so in the long run getting ahead of the curve with this arm could be very beneficial.

I swam twice after the injury, it was initially diagnosed as an impingement before they did a scan months later. I had a pretty respectable race on arguably the hardest swim course in triathlon, and this was done with a limited range of motion, and a lot of time lost to zig zagging. I had minimal pain in the water as long as I was careful with the reach and pull, but I seriously lacked power and swim fitness in the end.

Thanks again for the advice, I plan to head to the club meet tomorrow or Thursday, so can give some feedback then!

I don't think the kick should be a big emphasis on improvement. I don't think it will transform your swimming, and it might come at a cost- fatigue in training and fatigue in racing. However, being in the water and kicking is a hell of a lot better than doing nothing in the water. Even if your kick doesn't 'improve', the time in the water will be worth it. I've been down that path before.

A big part of great kicking is ankle flexibility. I would not go messing with that as it can leave you injured at worst, or negatively impacting your run at best.

While I think the 1arm is a smart move for the reasons you mentioned, I think the bigger value is that you are still SWIMMING, and that will make the transition back a lot easier.

Good luck!

Andrew

http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 17:30

Post #66 of 242 (3230 views)

Changpao wrote:

As I start to fatigue at the end of a long set or the swim portion of a 70.3/ full distance IM , where should I feel it? I ask because I worry I do not use my lats enough. I tend to tire out in my upper back muscles and arms. I rarely finish a swim thinking my lats are tired. If I'm not using them enough, are there drills I can do to teach myself to engage them? FWIW, I've been working on EVF and sometimes as I'm doing that I try to think about using my lats as I pull back. That does seem to help a bit, at least while I'm doing the drill.

Good question. It's a bit strange. You use your lats, but you don't always feel your lats. They don't have a lot innervation, so it's hard to 'feel' them.

When you fatigue during a long set, everything is going to get tired. Arms, shoulders, upper back. They're all working hard and those muscles are going to be more 'pumped'/fatigued that your lets, so you'll feel those preferentially. I would be concerned if you ONLY felt it in your biceps or something like that. That's not a good sign. i would say what you're experiencing is normal.

A great way to FEEL how to use the lats is to take a soccer ball, big pillow, etc and put it in your armpit. Now SQUEEZE. That is the way you want to pull. Open you arm pit as wide as you can (you'll see you more or less assume a EVF and then close it and squeeze the ball. That's the basis of the pull. Let me know if this doesn't make sense and I can try to get pictures (ANYONE reading this that wants pictures just reply).

You can try this-

https://drive.google.com/...CHI/view?usp=sharing

While doing it, remember this-

Get your hand deeper than elbow
Get your hand inside the elbow
Pull straight back (when you do, try to squeeze the soccer ball).

Just keep in mind you're not going to feel it like you feel a biceps curl. If you perform the right basic movements, the appropriate muscles will do the work.

Let me know if you have follow up questions.

Andrew

http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [Tri2gohard] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 17:32

Post #67 of 242 (3227 views)

Tri2gohard wrote:

This thread has been very helpful.

Thanks for posting.

You are very welcome.

Andrew

http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [david] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 17:35

Post #68 of 242 (3224 views)

david wrote:

Andrew,

I am enjoying following this thread and appreciate your insight. Just jumping on to say thank you.

My pleasure. I appreciate it!

Andrew

http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 18, 22 18:35

Post #69 of 242 (3213 views)

Really good stuff thank you

I sent you a private message

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 22 6:02

Post #70 of 242 (3159 views)

This is very helpful- thank you!

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 22 10:29

Post #71 of 242 (3136 views)

What’s the best way, for an AOS, to develop a good grip on the water? Can you describe it terms/metaphors that don’t include “pulling yourself over a barrel?”

I have been swimming since 2014, and I still feel like I can’t wrap my head around a proper catch or what physical cues I should be aiming for.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [cloy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 22 10:56

Post #72 of 242 (3124 views)

I have been swimming since 2014, and I still feel like I can’t wrap my head around a proper catch or what physical cues I should be aiming for. //

A couple of easy physical cues would be the bubbles trapped on your hand. To get a good"grip" as you put it, you have to release this bubbles before the hand moves back. Another physical cue is your hand lower than your elbow in the catch phase?

The barrel thing has been overdone, so maybe use the word anchor in your head? You are anchoring your hand to a spot, then using your body's rotation and EVF to get it moving backwards, all the while holding that anchor position. Does that help your visualization?

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 22 10:59

Post #73 of 242 (3122 views)

Tips or drills for a swimmer that has poor body alignment and lots of "fish tailing"?

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [MasteringFlow] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 22 12:16

Post #74 of 242 (3108 views)

MasteringFlow wrote:

A great way to FEEL how to use the lats is to take a soccer ball, big pillow, etc and put it in your armpit. Now SQUEEZE. That is the way you want to pull. Open you arm pit as wide as you can (you'll see you more or less assume a EVF and then close it and squeeze the ball. That's the basis of the pull. Let me know if this doesn't make sense and I can try to get pictures (ANYONE reading this that wants pictures just reply).

You can try this-

https://drive.google.com/...CHI/view?usp=sharing

While doing it, remember this-

Get your hand deeper than elbow
Get your hand inside the elbow
Pull straight back (when you do, try to squeeze the soccer ball).

Andrew

The concept of "holding the water" has always intrigued me, especially when I see my friends in my Masters' swim club able to move so fast through the water even though many of them can't do even one pull-up, and how much slower I am even though I have a far higher strength to weight ratio. I think this ability (being able to hold on to the water and sense the minute pressure differentials that provide the information as to how much the hand is slipping) is the elusive "natural ability" that has been debated so much in this thread.

I am looking forward to trying the three tips you gave at swim club tonight!

Many thanks for the advice in this thread, you are hitting the perfect balance of technical advice expressed in "layman's" terms.

Re: Swimming Technique Questions Answered [piratetri] [ In reply to ]

Jan 19, 22 12:52

Post #75 of 242 (3087 views)

piratetri wrote:

Tips or drills for a swimmer that has poor body alignment and lots of "fish tailing"?

Best drill bar none for this is tight ankle band swimming. Start with a pull buoy+band, then move up to band only.

Try not to do too many dolphin kicks while banded.

The band on your ankles will remove any compensating kick, and reveal stroke errors that push you laterally and thus fishtail (requiring a kick to compensate.) It also forces you to swim with less vertical oscillation, as you'll find that if you 'bounce' in the water at all, it'll get amplified and your legs will then drop suddenly to the bottom.

It's challenging, but start slow and don't give up.

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