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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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oprfcc wrote:
You're crazy if you think the French would make a course for Cassandra over any of their four guys who could medal. (Coninx, Bergere, Luis, Le Corre...all of whom have podiumed at an Olympic distance WTCS event)

Cassandra's best ever WTCS level Olympic distances is 8th place.
She is very good, but 2 hours is not 1 hour.

BTW, would be great if any coach can tell me...After seeing Beaugraund and Rappaport for years dropping from the bike packs...is it that hard to improve the cycling to hold the pace + handling skills?? I even saw Summer in Bermuda struggling to jump on her bike, again...
On the other hand, Potter seems she has worked a lot.

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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juanillo wrote:
oprfcc wrote:
You're crazy if you think the French would make a course for Cassandra over any of their four guys who could medal. (Coninx, Bergere, Luis, Le Corre...all of whom have podiumed at an Olympic distance WTCS event)

Cassandra's best ever WTCS level Olympic distances is 8th place.
She is very good, but 2 hours is not 1 hour.


BTW, would be great if any coach can tell me...After seeing Beaugraund and Rappaport for years dropping from the bike packs...is it that hard to improve the cycling to hold the pace + handling skills?? I even saw Summer in Bermuda struggling to jump on her bike, again...
On the other hand, Potter seems she has worked a lot.

I'm not a coach, but glad you asked this - I think, especially on this forum, there is the assumption that the bike is all about power.

It's also a skill based sport - even in an IM you can gain or lose minutes with good riding skills - how you use the gears, how you corner, how you enter and exit hills. It adds up to a lot of time.

The ITU bike is not easy.

I've done my fair share of drafting Oly and Sprint races, and they remain the hardest bike legs I have done. If you can't corner quickly in a pack, if you can't put in continuous 10s maxed-out bursts for a full hour, you are toast.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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And yet the race has already been described as bland. But think about it you got those 4 guys and You Can find 2-3 who are let’s call it top 8 run splits in the sport. So you now ensure that all 3 races is easy of which you’ve now improved your chances in all 3 races not just in mens by making individual race “hard”.

Eta: their medal favorite is probably the MTR of which Beaugrand is a huge weapon in.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 9, 22 3:14
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
While Vincent is certainly an excellent swimmer, he's not in Varga's league. ///

I dont know how you and a couple others can say this, did you all not see this race, or others







Monty,

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this matter;)

Perhaps you didn't realize it but Richy use to temper his race swims when he trained with the Brownlees to allow them to hold his feet. He'd often roll over on his back for a few strokes to make sure they were securely hooked on. If I remember correctly Johnny publicly chastised Richy for going too fast in Edmonton and dropping him. At Challenge Samorin in 2017 after leaving their training group Richy dropped Alistair, who had been tightly attached to his feet, after about 4 minutes and put 46 seconds into him in a 21:31, 1.9km swim. Alistair freely admitted that Richy was in a league of his own. So yes in regards to swimming a league of his own.
YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: Nov 9, 22 2:49
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Ajax Bay wrote:
Adman wrote:
Jackets wrote:
In other news congratulations to GTB who received a Member Of The British Empire award today and a belated one for Jonny Brownlee who got his last month. (Really big honour from the Royal family)


To be fair they hand them out like sweeties these days. The revolving door of PMs doesn't help either.
Those will be the quality sweeties that come with 'easily earned' Olympic gold medals. Turnover frequency of PMs makes zero difference to such honours.
Good to see triathletes being honoured so, one with a Damehood (DBE).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister%27s_Resignation_Honours#:~:text=The%20Prime%20Minister's%20Resignation%20Honours,of%20people%20of%20their%20choosing.


Team gold medal. Ughhh.


Anyway good to see JB getting recognised as he has been around at the top level for over a decade.


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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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It’s a little bit of skill + power + psychological. And when you have a weakness in any of those, the other gals are now smart enough and brave enough to make you pay. It wasn’t always like that in the female ranks. But now “weaknesses” are being put on the limit, as they should.

So if it’s psychological, either you figure out a way to improve and get over it or you are kinda screwed. But maybe some of those athletes just loathe one segment of the sport that it really is a struggle. GJ talked about that with the swim and a comeback (she did a good interview in 2017 about it) She recognizes what it takes to make it work and just doing swim sets at the local pool won’t work for her. She needs the daily attention from a coach and others around her to push her. So whether it’s the S B or R, you can have a mental hurdle. The bike is likely the hardest because the injury risk is the highest, and you are “going fast” and frankly that can be “scary”. So if you are scared/fearful you’ll always have this “timid”ness about you that others can then just take advantage of.

GJ used to kinda be “meh” on the bike. I don’t think she was ever as bad as someone like Summer is this late into her career. But she was never really one to push the pace, def more of a passenger in the group. The winter before Rio her team went to California and rode down some steep climbs on the back of a professional driven moto going over 100+ mph, over and over for like a week. It taught her how to see the lines, how to position yourself, how to corner fast, and how to say “see this isn’t so bad”. Next thing you know she’s the one pushing the bike to keep Spirig in check in Rio.

But that’a how invested she was in on winning and mind you this was after her dominant winning streak. Hell look into her story of when she made London Olympics and her decision to go all in or stay as part time triathlete, part time accountant. It takes boldness sometimes to fix things and to truly give yourself the best shot possible.

And sometimes being the worst S B or R in your training group over and over and over you don’t actually get to work on said skill. Like if your always worst out of corners, sometimes it’s kinda hard to figure out exactly what it is that makes you bad at it. It’s easy to scream at the athlete “hold the wheel” but if your the worst skilled athlete there you kinda don’t gain confidence from it. So there can be many reasons why said athletes continue to struggle with it. And hell said athletes can look good in practice and be right there on said person’s wheel but when it comes to doing it when the lights are on, they fail.

And when an athlete doesn’t look comfortable or relaxed on a bike, they simply are going to struggle on a technical itu course with many turns and u turns. You can fake it more in non draft than you can in itu where the technical skills are just part of the job.

Go watch the I believe 2013 MTR when US decided to pick a non draft bike specialist on the relay. He easily was among the worst bike handlers in the field, coming into the corners sitting on the hoods all up right (I call it granny turns). They went from leading to either 3rd or 4th on his final leg. They asked him what happened, his response “these guys know how to handle a bike”.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 9, 22 3:54
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
It’s a little bit of skill + power + psychological. And when you have a weakness in any of those, the other gals are now smart enough and brave enough to make you pay. It wasn’t always like that in the female ranks. But now “weaknesses” are being put on the limit, as they should.

So if it’s psychological, either you figure out a way to improve and get over it or you are kinda screwed. But maybe some of those athletes just loathe one segment of the sport that it really is a struggle. GJ talked about that with the swim and a comeback (she did a good interview in 2017 about it) She recognizes what it takes to make it work and just doing swim sets at the local pool won’t work for her. She needs the daily attention from a coach and others around her to push her. So whether it’s the S B or R, you can have a mental hurdle. The bike is likely the hardest because the injury risk is the highest, and you are “going fast” and frankly that can be “scary”. So if you are scared/fearful you’ll always have this “timid”ness about you that others can then just take advantage of.

GJ used to kinda be “meh” on the bike. I don’t think she was ever as bad as someone like Summer is this late into her career. But she was never really one to push the pace, def more of a passenger in the group. The winter before Rio her team went to California and rode down some steep climbs on the back of a professional driven moto going over 100+ mph, over and over for like a week. It taught her how to see the lines, how to position yourself, how to corner fast, and how to say “see this isn’t so bad”. Next thing you know she’s the one pushing the bike to keep Spirig in check in Rio.

But that’a how invested she was in on winning and mind you this was after her dominant winning streak. Hell look into her story of when she made London Olympics and her decision to go all in or stay as part time triathlete, part time accountant. It takes boldness sometimes to fix things and to truly give yourself the best shot possible.

And sometimes being the worst S B or R in your training group over and over and over you don’t actually get to work on said skill. Like if your always worst out of corners, sometimes it’s kinda hard to figure out exactly what it is that makes you bad at it. It’s easy to scream at the athlete “hold the wheel” but if your the worst skilled athlete there you kinda don’t gain confidence from it. So there can be many reasons why said athletes continue to struggle with it. And hell said athletes can look good in practice and be right there on said person’s wheel but when it comes to doing it when the lights are on, they fail.

And when an athlete doesn’t look comfortable or relaxed on a bike, they simply are going to struggle on a technical itu course with many turns and u turns. You can fake it more in non draft than you can in itu where the technical skills are just part of the job.

Go watch the I believe 2013 MTR when US decided to pick a non draft bike specialist on the relay. He easily was among the worst bike handlers in the field, coming into the corners sitting on the hoods all up right (I call it granny turns). They went from leading to either 3rd or 4th on his final leg. They asked him what happened, his response “these guys know how to handle a bike”.

I understand all of it, and I guess Summer is working on it...but its been like that since the first time I saw her. I am not a coach but if she struggles and hates the bike, well, I would go to theraphy and train the smartest way that I would be adviced, and I guess that includes reps reps reps and confront the danger. Wish her the best to be able to be amongst the top girls because she is one of the top runners. By the way, I have not seen that in the men field ever, or as long as I remember... but Gwen, Cassandre, Summer????... is it panic?

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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But imo the issue with an metal hurdle is that you can be doing everything right in training, you can be working on it, it looks great and then WHAM, race day you fall back to square one. And we know she’s working the things in training cus she has a world class coach, she is riding with world class athletes. She’s doing bike reps, she’s doing cornering work. Hell my shop sold her a MTB 2 years ago to help her with her riding skills. She lived in my area for 2 years (well technically her home was here and she was only here in the off-season as she lives and trains full time in Europe).

But that’s the thing with a mental block. If one small thing gets into your head it’s over. And mind you, those front pack athletes EVERYONE knows what’s going on. Every athlete and coach knows what to do in a situation with a poor bike handling athlete. In the same way they know how to drop a poor runner or know how to drop a swimmer.

The polyansky brothers were well known for likely being the weakest front pack bikers in the men’s field. They were always in the back and were the first to get popped off when the heat was applied.


But also one final note. Sometimes your just not good enough on the bike. There is a funny story that Tommy Z tells of how good AB was on a bike. During a race AB rolled to the back and told Tommy he better help or he’ll get popped off. TZ already on the limit was like shit. Next thing you know AB popped him off.

The crazy thing he says about that story:
1- TZ didn’t not want to pull through, he was simply at his limit to simply hold a wheel.
2- the fact that AB said he would pop him off and then did it, that’s just another level of crazy good.

So mind you, the gals have gotten to the point that the bike isn’t a hand holding ride anymore, They are strong enough to make the weaker riders pay now. It wasn’t always like that.


Lastly, we don’t give chase pack swimmers or non front pack runners shit for not “getting better” at said weakness, generally you are what you are as a swimmer or runner as those are harder to overcome. Sometimes your best just isn’t good enough, the bike is likely the easiest to improve on due to the drafting advantage but they are still riding damn hard, that if you suck at it, you’ll pay for it….just like poor swimmers or poor runners pay for said weakness. I would say the bike is the easiest to fix but if you are an athlete that has some type of fear or just not strong enough, it then is harder to fix just as it’s really hard to fix a chase pack swim ability or a non front pack run ability. Yes Bike is likely the easiest of the 3 to get better at, but also have to give credit to everyone around you who’s making the bike count as well.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 9, 22 6:02
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jess Learmonth also honoured with an MBE (Member Of The British Empire)

Anyone know what she's planning on doing when coming back from injury? Is she going to make the Brit Olympic selection team traditionally have to pick 3 from 4!
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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juanillo wrote:
oprfcc wrote:
You're crazy if you think the French would make a course for Cassandra over any of their four guys who could medal. (Coninx, Bergere, Luis, Le Corre...all of whom have podiumed at an Olympic distance WTCS event)

Cassandra's best ever WTCS level Olympic distances is 8th place.
She is very good, but 2 hours is not 1 hour.


BTW, would be great if any coach can tell me...After seeing Beaugraund and Rappaport for years dropping from the bike packs...is it that hard to improve the cycling to hold the pace + handling skills?? I even saw Summer in Bermuda struggling to jump on her bike, again...
On the other hand, Potter seems she has worked a lot.

It is easier to develop the bike than the swim! I think it depends on the athlete and the approach to fixing it.

Potter has really worked on her bike and swim the last 18 months. The bike has been a total commitment to riding with people better than her and crits/chain gangs. I firmly believe that improving power isn’t the only piece of the answer. You have to get used to riding flat out with people all around you. You have to adapt to change in pace when you are already working REALLY hard.

You can improve generally but you won’t improve tactically etc.

Beaugrand has moved to Loughborough and I believe she will be doing most of her training with Ben D, Mathias, Coldwell et all. She can only benefit from that. They regularly have a similar approach to Leeds and have midweek races etc.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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oprfcc wrote:
You're crazy if you think the French would make a course for Cassandra over any of their four guys who could medal. (Coninx, Bergere, Luis, Le Corre...all of whom have podiumed at an Olympic distance WTCS event)

Cassandra's best ever WTCS level Olympic distances is 8th place.
She is very good, but 2 hours is not 1 hour.

Not to mention Lombardi (best young triathlete breaking through at the moment) and Periault (been on the podium a few times herself)
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
Jess Learmonth also honoured with an MBE (Member Of The British Empire)

Anyone know what she's planning on doing when coming back from injury? Is she going to make the Brit Olympic selection team traditionally have to pick 3 from 4!

More than 4: GTB and Potter seem secure. Then Mathias, Waugh, Rainsley, Learmonth. Holland and Stanford retired has made it a bit easier for the picks. Any notice about LCB to give it a try? I think she could make the team.

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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juanillo wrote:
Jackets wrote:
Jess Learmonth also honoured with an MBE (Member Of The British Empire)

Anyone know what she's planning on doing when coming back from injury? Is she going to make the Brit Olympic selection team traditionally have to pick 3 from 4!

More than 4: GTB and Potter seem secure. Then Mathias, Waugh, Rainsley, Learmonth. Holland and Stanford retired has made it a bit easier for the picks. Any notice about LCB to give it a try? I think she could make the team.

At the moment I think it's a prety easy pick GTB, Potter and Coldwell (you forget her)

I'm guessing one from Waugh, Rainsley, Mathias may break through (hopefully they all do) and start getting on the odd podium next year maybe.

No idea what LCB is doing, I think if she had any chance of making the team she needed to drop LC and focus on ITU this year, hasn't she got points to make up or can Brit Tri put who they want in? Her bike handling is a concern also.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
I’ll agree with the consensus that “lock” was too strong a statement.

The basis for my statement is it appears to me that, much like Duffy in 2017, Knibb has elevated her fitness level.

Maybe she needs one or two more races to “prove” this true.

So I am modifying that statement: I provisionally believe that Knibb is a podium lock going forward.

I watched the first 70 minutes of the race this morning. I DO NOT know what happens yet, but I have to say, I went from "Geez I am an idiot" to "okay, not such an idiot" pretty quickly.

I am looking forward to reading the 2 pages of commentary on this race. I'll watch the last 40 minutes or so tonight.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
Jess Learmonth also honoured with an MBE (Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire)
FTFY Many proud and now independent nations were 'Members' of the British Empire; thankfully now an anachronism.
Jackets wrote:
No idea what LCB is doing, I think if she had any chance of making the team she needed to drop LC and focus on ITU this year, hasn't she got points to make up or can Brit Tri put who they want in? Her bike handling is a concern also.
Yeah. I wonder why Charles didn't just really focus on short distance this year. It's not as if she was injured or anything.
The only conceivable reason British Triathlon might even politely return her call is because of her huge following. There is a surfeit of British female talent at short (indeedy all) distance even if Learmonth doesn't come back: there will be no spare starting slot for Charles in any race. 2021 has been and gone.
https://triathlon.org/...onship_series/female
Last edited by: Ajax Bay: Nov 9, 22 9:22
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Even without the injury, was she planning on Olympics? I think she needed to go all in and put 100% focus.

Her cameo performances were very good, her and Learmoth could have guaranteed to string out the field in the swim and 3 British women in the front pack with a sizable gap, the blueprint was there.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Monty,

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this matter;) //


I dont think we are really that far apart. I understand Varga could blast off and solo most of his swims, but he eventually figured out that was not in his best interest. So he would break the back of the main field, and just allow a small group to swim with him, and then work together on the bike. That is "exactly" what Vince did in this race. And it is no small feat to even be able to do this, many have tried, and most have failed. Do we know for sure that Vince could not have gone faster? Maybe, maybe not, but doesn't really matter does it? He like Varga, used his overpowering swim speed to set the race up exactly like he wanted to. A perfect race actually, against many of the best runners in the sport.


So for me, he is certainly in Vargas league(not better or faster), and even if not quite as fast, could certainly hold his feet, even if he put on the drop everyone afterburners. I really dont know how fast he is in the pool these days, but appears he is at his best ever to do what he did. I would be interested in some of his sets lately, anyone know??
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Monty,

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this matter;) //


I dont think we are really that far apart. I understand Varga could blast off and solo most of his swims, but he eventually figured out that was not in his best interest. So he would break the back of the main field, and just allow a small group to swim with him, and then work together on the bike. That is "exactly" what Vince did in this race. And it is no small feat to even be able to do this, many have tried, and most have failed. Do we know for sure that Vince could not have gone faster? Maybe, maybe not, but doesn't really matter does it? He like Varga, used his overpowering swim speed to set the race up exactly like he wanted to. A perfect race actually, against many of the best runners in the sport.


So for me, he is certainly in Vargas league(not better or faster), and even if not quite as fast, could certainly hold his feet, even if he put on the drop everyone afterburners. I really dont know how fast he is in the pool these days, but appears he is at his best ever to do what he did. I would be interested in some of his sets lately, anyone know??

I think one thing to add is Varga was not always all out on the swim, as his job was to domestique the Brownlees. I'm pretty sure in one of the races he took shit for pushing the pace too much, to the point AB couldn't hold the feet. As a side word on the street in the UK is the Brownlees pool times were much more modest than you'd expect, yet obviously different class in OW.

I get the impression Varga would probably have an advantage over Luis but really hard to say. They both do the same thing - rip the race apart on the swim. But Luis is the complete package.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure I'll be corrected on this, but I can't remember Luis leading out the swim before until Bermuda? Varga has only done 1 ITU race that I can think of in years, if Luis has prime Varga swim ability he's not been using it (knowing what danger lies in a chase pack)

As I said, he's had a run injury so his swim right now is probably as good as its ever been.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Luis has always been a top swimmer but look at his swim times from the 2018 Hamburg race till now. Fastest swim split in the majority of the races including the Tokyo Olympics.

https://www.triathlon.org/...s/11143/vincent_luis
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure I'll be corrected on this, but I can't remember Luis leading out the swim before until Bermuda? Varga has only done 1 ITU race that I can think of in years, if Luis has prime Varga swim ability he's not been using it (knowing what danger lies in a chase pack) //

Well yes, except for just about every race he does. Have a look at the guys that are on his feet in the olympics, where I guess he didnt really use his swim either? And I guess you dont watch ITU much, how about Super League? There he routinely leads every single swim too, and only the very top swimmers can stay with him for even a 300. Honestly, he is pushing the swim pace in just about every race he has ever done, it is not some new phenomena. Just that since he has been out for awhile(running with the Kenyans) I suppose folks just forgot how fast and talented this guy really is. He wasn't even supposed to race the olympics, but did it injured just because, the olympics and all.


I really hope he can hold himself together for this short run up to his home town olympic games, I love his racing style..
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
I'm sure I'll be corrected on this, but I can't remember Luis leading out the swim before until Bermuda? Varga has only done 1 ITU race that I can think of in years, if Luis has prime Varga swim ability he's not been using it (knowing what danger lies in a chase pack)

As I said, he's had a run injury so his swim right now is probably as good as its ever been.

yeah, i'm sure someone will manage to. and maybe even be nice and condescending about it, too!

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Also keep in mind swims and who leads them is important and also can be unimportant based on the race. Bermuda is important because it was an open swim w some ocean swell chop, so those conditions + bike course gives incentive to really push the pace. Yokohama when it’s an flat sea and wetsuit the “advantage” gained just likely isn’t there.

It’ll be interesting what happens w Bermuda race. As I said it’s gotta be the craziest thing to have an entire place to basically cheer 1 person. Has to be cool as hell, and it’s legendary to then back it up with a W. But I don’t see Bermuda staying on the schedule post Duffy.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Keep in mind itu is a very particular sub segment of the sport and this thread is made up of basically the same dozen or so people who yes watch the sport, support it, and have some basic understanding of it at minimum.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Also keep in mind swims and who leads them is important and also can be unimportant based on the race. Bermuda is important because it was an open swim w some ocean swell chop, so those conditions + bike course gives incentive to really push the pace. Yokohama when it’s an flat sea and wetsuit the “advantage” gained just likely isn’t there.

It’ll be interesting what happens w Bermuda race. As I said it’s gotta be the craziest thing to have an entire place to basically cheer 1 person. Has to be cool as hell, and it’s legendary to then back it up with a W. But I don’t see Bermuda staying on the schedule post Duffy.

I think it has served well as the alternative to Kitzbuhel. I really like that 20th place came 5 minutes back! I feel like they need at least one really hard bike on the circuit.
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