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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
Women's
Some run from Duffy, actually thought she was looking like having a bit of an off year, but can't wait to see how she goes with GTB in Commonwealths and other races, think Potter seemed a bit gutted she couldn't hold on for the win. She's done brilliant coming into the sport late and putting herself onto podiums.

Relay
GB B team (maybe even a C team?) with a brilliant win, although to be fair no one seemed to have their strongest teams out, what the hell happen to USA Mcqueen was it? In the first leg? Probably be an unpopular opinion but I think they should scale down the relays to 1 every 2 races instead of every race.
Given Potter's palmares, I am surprised she can't run away from everyone.
Think this was a 'B' team rather than a 'C' team: impressive strength in depth. I was avoiding using this nomenclature in case some sensitive souls from across the pond took umbrage.
What is your rationale for reducing the number of MTRs? Doesn't an MTR on Sunday make it a really worthwhile weekend for athletes and their support? A proper 'standard' distance individual would make it hard for the same athletes to double up the following day so every sprint distance individual should have an MTR alongside.
Anyway there's a massive summer break till the next WTCS competitions.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure Potter beats Duffy on a run, but obviously not after a swim and bike 'yet?' Maybe she needs another year to put everything together.

I think they're sort of watering down the event, I'm sure the MTR was once a year and the teams were loaded and was really something to look forward to, it's becoming a little bit of chore to watch every event, with severely weekend teams which your big names are not bothering to race in.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Ajax Bay wrote:
Jackets wrote:
Women's
Some run from Duffy, actually thought she was looking like having a bit of an off year, but can't wait to see how she goes with GTB in Commonwealths and other races, think Potter seemed a bit gutted she couldn't hold on for the win. She's done brilliant coming into the sport late and putting herself onto podiums.

Relay
GB B team (maybe even a C team?) with a brilliant win, although to be fair no one seemed to have their strongest teams out, what the hell happen to USA Mcqueen was it? In the first leg? Probably be an unpopular opinion but I think they should scale down the relays to 1 every 2 races instead of every race.

Given Potter's palmares, I am surprised she can't run away from everyone.
Think this was a 'B' team rather than a 'C' team: impressive strength in depth. I was avoiding using this nomenclature in case some sensitive souls from across the pond took umbrage.
What is your rationale for reducing the number of MTRs? Doesn't an MTR on Sunday make it a really worthwhile weekend for athletes and their support? A proper 'standard' distance individual would make it hard for the same athletes to double up the following day so every sprint distance individual should have an MTR alongside.
Anyway there's a massive summer break till the next WTCS competitions.

Given how much Beth has improved both her swim and bike this season I would imagine that was a focus over the winter. Possibly she did less running to accommodate an increased volume in the other 2. Her goal is a medal in Paris.

She is either front pack swim or just off front pack swim now which is a huge improvement. If she makes the team she has a good chance of a medal.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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There are relays at less than 1/2 of the WTCS events, it just happens that this season was front loaded with sprints, and back loaded with Standards, so there were MTRs with 3 events in a row and then very few on the back half because of the standard distance events.

This may be a commonwealth bias in circuit planning, given that the commies are sprint distance and relay... so it's a good tune-up...

In terms of the US MTR, McQueen had a chain issue that he had to stop to fix (no Wilde/Iden wizardry...), and Hoel for Canada got a flat early in the first lap, tried to ride it out on his rim until it basically caved in, and had to DNF (the pictures of his rim from socials are gnarly). Disappointing end for both, given that they led out of the water... We're seeing more penalties on the circuit these days... I think that because the races are so competitive people are under pressure constantly and making more inattention errors. we're seeing more swim conduct penalties too, since the officials now have access to drone footage on WTCS swims, which gives way better angles for spotting, than a hand held camera from a boat alongside... They've also moved to a football (soccer) type system for the swim conduct penalties, where your penalties accumulate and result in suspensions for repeat offenders, which should hopefully help clean up the swims (not to mention that the swim conduct rules were introduced at the request of the athlete's committee). Either way, it has meant that races aren't short on drama with penalties threatening to disrupt the order of things in many races (both individual and MTR). You have to feel for Lindemann who earned neither of the two, but had to deal with the brunt of both penalties in the MTR. Flora's interview after the individual was priceless, she pooched T2 after seeing her goggles out of the bin, and knew she wasn't making her life easy, but then chose to take that out on everyone else, with the most Flora performance we've seen outside of Tokyo since the first Bermuda race...

I know that traditionalists bemoan the sprint races on the WTCS, but we've had so much drama and excitement this season, I have to say I like it. We'll get the tactical standard distance chess matches come fall, once we get past the commonwealth games, which bring their own set of drama, but I see room for both formats, I would prefer more intermixing of the formats, rather than 3 sprints/SS in a row, and then a pile of standards...

On the para series front, impressive races in Montreal. the highlight pack is up, but doesn't do justice to Lauren Parker's dominance... She was more than a lap ahead of second place on the run leg... That's even scarier, given that she's been dabbling in long distance racing and looking to race para cycling worlds too... If she stays healthy and motivated, I can't see her losing in a sprint in Paris like she did in Tokyo.... There were plenty of other impressive performances too, even if there were a few of the top brits sitting it out to avoid travel and focus on the commonwealth games... I wonder if one of these years they will move the WTCS from the old port over to the race track like the paras (and the Esprit Tri in september), I could only imagine the speeds that the pack could reach on that course...

And for the MTR, the OG qualifying is broken down with auto spots for the host, the one in MTL (taken by GB) and one in Hamburg next year as the world champs. Then there will be the auto qualifying by ranking, and then the last chance qualifier race. there then might be the odd other team that sneaks in by virtue of qualifying 2 and 2 based on individual rankings that would be eligible for a relay as well...

As for Abdelmoula, he had a world cup win late last year (and had some promising world cup results before that), made the top 10 in Montreal (his first or second WTCS i believe) before his podium in Hamburg, so I can't say that I was shocked. He tends to do well on races where the group is largely together on the bike, because he has a serious run, but I relish to see more and more countries being competitive on the circuit...
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
I think they're sort of watering down the event, I'm sure the MTR was once a year and the teams were loaded and was really something to look forward to,

No relays listed for the remaining 3 WTCS races (though info on Cagliari is scarce on the ITU site)
End of period 1 for Olympic qualification is May next year, so it may only be regional champs that offer the chance for more points unless they have a relay at an early 2023 WTCS.
The intent of the split period qualification is obviously to increase depth in MTR events, but the top nations don't care as they're focussed on qualifying 6 athletes, which won't come via MTR.

I like the relay, brings a different skillset into play.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Cheers for explaining the front of season loaded MTR, glad we're going to get some proper oly distance races now, prefer them over sprint.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Pontevedra World Cup is coming up and is standard distance if memory serves...the next WTCS isn't until Cagliari in October... It's a bizarre season with some 2021 races counting, and then a long layoff for the commonwealth games. Next year should be a more normal season, which a more earnest push for OG qualifying as well...
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
There are relays at less than 1/2 of the WTCS events, it just happens that this season was front loaded with sprints, and back loaded with Standards, so there were MTRs with 3 events in a row and then very few on the back half because of the standard distance events.

This may be a commonwealth bias in circuit planning, given that the commies are sprint distance and relay... so it's a good tune-up...

In terms of the US MTR, McQueen had a chain issue that he had to stop to fix (no Wilde/Iden wizardry...), and Hoel for Canada got a flat early in the first lap, tried to ride it out on his rim until it basically caved in, and had to DNF (the pictures of his rim from socials are gnarly). Disappointing end for both, given that they led out of the water... We're seeing more penalties on the circuit these days... I think that because the races are so competitive people are under pressure constantly and making more inattention errors. we're seeing more swim conduct penalties too, since the officials now have access to drone footage on WTCS swims, which gives way better angles for spotting, than a hand held camera from a boat alongside... They've also moved to a football (soccer) type system for the swim conduct penalties, where your penalties accumulate and result in suspensions for repeat offenders, which should hopefully help clean up the swims (not to mention that the swim conduct rules were introduced at the request of the athlete's committee). Either way, it has meant that races aren't short on drama with penalties threatening to disrupt the order of things in many races (both individual and MTR). You have to feel for Lindemann who earned neither of the two, but had to deal with the brunt of both penalties in the MTR. Flora's interview after the individual was priceless, she pooched T2 after seeing her goggles out of the bin, and knew she wasn't making her life easy, but then chose to take that out on everyone else, with the most Flora performance we've seen outside of Tokyo since the first Bermuda race...

I know that traditionalists bemoan the sprint races on the WTCS, but we've had so much drama and excitement this season, I have to say I like it. We'll get the tactical standard distance chess matches come fall, once we get past the commonwealth games, which bring their own set of drama, but I see room for both formats, I would prefer more intermixing of the formats, rather than 3 sprints/SS in a row, and then a pile of standards...

On the para series front, impressive races in Montreal. the highlight pack is up, but doesn't do justice to Lauren Parker's dominance... She was more than a lap ahead of second place on the run leg... That's even scarier, given that she's been dabbling in long distance racing and looking to race para cycling worlds too... If she stays healthy and motivated, I can't see her losing in a sprint in Paris like she did in Tokyo.... There were plenty of other impressive performances too, even if there were a few of the top brits sitting it out to avoid travel and focus on the commonwealth games... I wonder if one of these years they will move the WTCS from the old port over to the race track like the paras (and the Esprit Tri in september), I could only imagine the speeds that the pack could reach on that course...

And for the MTR, the OG qualifying is broken down with auto spots for the host, the one in MTL (taken by GB) and one in Hamburg next year as the world champs. Then there will be the auto qualifying by ranking, and then the last chance qualifier race. there then might be the odd other team that sneaks in by virtue of qualifying 2 and 2 based on individual rankings that would be eligible for a relay as well...

As for Abdelmoula, he had a world cup win late last year (and had some promising world cup results before that), made the top 10 in Montreal (his first or second WTCS i believe) before his podium in Hamburg, so I can't say that I was shocked. He tends to do well on races where the group is largely together on the bike, because he has a serious run, but I relish to see more and more countries being competitive on the circuit...



i would be very much up for more sprint races if the swim portion would be made a bit longer to give it a bit more time for the fields to split a bit more. in my opinion the current sprint races make it too much of a run race in the mens as the fields are to close, but of course i also see that right now we in the opposite area then the last decade, and in the female race most top swimmer are also the top cyclists , like in the brownlee area . this has just switched around and could easily change again . but still i do think the swim should be a bit longer lets say 1 k and the few sec more separation would be good.


Iam looking forward to the day when they will have a bit of decent camera work done for para races. i think it would be better if they were only at every 2nd race but then double the cameras and have at least one camera on a motor bike , so you can actually watch the race a bit. rather than like 10 sec snippets of each race.
and just to add jetze plat is still 9 min faster than parker-who is obviously an great athlete and still improving- so a bit more than the gender gap and he is the triple oly champ from tokio in tri , road cycle and tt . and did kona in 8.40 I was told by a dutch team mate, the guy pushes 300 watts on the bike with his arms ... but i have to say parker is the only athlete where i like to see the bahrain 13en logo on the trisuit .
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Good points, although, I am not sure that the time gap between Plat and Parker is fully reflective, given that the men's races are much closer than the women's races in PTWC (save for the Tokyo sprint), so I get the sense that given how busy her race card is this year, she does tend to cost the end of the run at times.

Fair points about the men's sprint races, that the swim tends not to be that selective. The more entertaining races tend to be the ones with tougher water conditions, where there are smaller packs in T1... I don't think the length of the swim is the issue, it tends to be fewer people are uber aggressive on the bike, trying to break the race open. you've got some solid riders, but they will just ride their group up to the lead pack, and then save the legs for the run. We need a healthy Van Riel, Schomburg to get his mojo back, and Blu and Iden back on the circuit...
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
Good points, although, I am not sure that the time gap between Plat and Parker is fully reflective, given that the men's races are much closer than the women's races in PTWC (save for the Tokyo sprint), so I get the sense that given how busy her race card is this year, she does tend to cost the end of the run at times.

Fair points about the men's sprint races, that the swim tends not to be that selective. The more entertaining races tend to be the ones with tougher water conditions, where there are smaller packs in T1... I don't think the length of the swim is the issue, it tends to be fewer people are uber aggressive on the bike, trying to break the race open. you've got some solid riders, but they will just ride their group up to the lead pack, and then save the legs for the run. We need a healthy Van Riel, Schomburg to get his mojo back, and Blu and Iden back on the circuit...


you can correct me but i think we had pretty much the same gender gap in the wc race in tokio 2021 when the females had a sprint race. and in a way its natural that platz is still better, he has been doing this for many many years while parker is in this category only for about 5 years now and while i tihink in some categories this can be an advantage i think in the wheelchair race its a total different thing as the mechanics are so different, and naturally will still improve. fact is the top athletes in pretty much every para category are serious elite level athletes and more and more are full time professionals .and while federation support can still be quite poor, in terms of sponsorships from companies some of those athletes are doing really well ,and some feds are doing a really good job too .

i agree I love the portugal itu race close to faro,
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [pk] [ In reply to ]
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The real levelling up in the PTWC races will happen when you get more crossing over with para-cycling and swimming. I suspect big gains for Parker this year, with her racing the circuit, some Ironman events, and trying to make a dent in the paracycling scene as well, trying to make selection for worlds. Hopefully others start to chase competitive opportunities in all disciplines and bring the level up. We've seen the same in some of the other categories, with many VI athletes coming from the pool/track over to tri. Then you've also got athletes like Stefan Daniel in PTS5 who has also raced at the Conti cup level against able bodied counterparts (and also was competitive on the Canadian University XC circuit). Like in the able bodied races since the Brownlee era, it's becoming less viable to come into the sport and compete as a single strength athlete, people really need to be strong across all 3 to have a shot in the majority of races.

Off most people's radars, it was cool to see Duathlon at the World Games in Birmingham (USA, not UK where the Commonwealth games are in 2 weeks). Both the individual races and the 2x2 Mixed Du relay event. Unsurprisingly at the head of affairs were largely the French and the Belgians, which is para for the Du course, but it was cool to see an ageless Ai Ueda snag the silver... Great to see multisport events at more of these games...
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:

Fair points about the men's sprint races, that the swim tends not to be that selective. The more entertaining races tend to be the ones with tougher water conditions, where there are smaller packs in T1... I don't think the length of the swim is the issue, it tends to be fewer people are uber aggressive on the bike, trying to break the race open. you've got some solid riders, but they will just ride their group up to the lead pack, and then save the legs for the run. We need a healthy Van Riel, Schomburg to get his mojo back, and Blu and Iden back on the circuit...

That's a good point. If they are seriously going to make the sprint distance the Olympic race they should change the swim to a 1000M

I was a guide for a lower tier (but world ranked) VI athlete. In 2018 (17?) we crashed in training and I lost my nerve so I skipped the trip to Yokohama. In 2020 we were set to go to Sarasota in March and something called "Covid" happened. SO I never got to the start line and now I am too slow!

My prediction: Blu and Iden will not be the same athletes when they come back to (formerly) ITU.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be surprised to see Blum come back into ITU and compete with Yee and Wilde on the run (definitely not this year if he's planning on racing any ITU at all?)

Although we've only seen sprint distance so far correct me if I'm wrong? Maybe someone will be able to go with them at full on the run?
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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It probably has less to do with a longer run and more to do with a longer swim... If we get something with some chop, it might be tougher for Yee/Wilde o bridge up to the leaders...
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Not so sure there's enough fire power on the bike in that front group to stay away these days.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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I think the firepower is there, but the motivation is not. And without both, it's hard to stay away. Although if Wilde and Yee keep trading victories, others might start to become more motivated to work to keep them from coming back. But again, there needs to the conditions where those two are meaningfully distanced from the lead pack, where there's enough probability of success, that people back the break...
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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The dynamics have now changed with no Brownlees or Gomez, only Luis has looked really commit who's capable of a good run off a hard bike (although he seems to be struggling this year) worse when the Norwegians come back.

Wilde, Yee, Murray, Mola, Birtwhstle, Geens plus the Norwegians chasing.

Mainly the French in that front pack, maybe they can put a lot of work in together over the next couple of months on the bike and come up with something.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Good racing this weekend in Pontevedra for the World cup. Will be very interesting for the Grand Final on that course next year, so many speed bumps on the bike, could be carnage... Big pack for the guys, and the Spaniards coming out hot on the run with Baxter edging Serrat, and Studer grabbing the bronze for the Swiss. The ladies had a successful bike break, but couldn't stretch the gap enough to avoid getting swallowed up on the run. Great runs from Kurikova, Tertsch, Dodet and Daniels to run up from the chase to the top 4. The speed bump right after the mount played in eliminating some from the breakaway, I also think it may have hurt some of the more tentative bike handlers in the field... Super interesting to see how it would play with a WTCS grand final field...

Commonwealth Games individual and relays/PTVIs run this weekend...
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Here is what is on my mind going into the second half of this unusual season:

The US Men need to get on the horse. They have -0- men in qualifying position for the Olympics. Last year they saved too much work for the second qualification period.

Is Non really going to retire? She has to be rethinking it at this point. I think an argument can be made she is a better relay option than Potter for the 2nd leg in my opinion.

Finally I'll be excited to see who comes back from injury: Knibb, JB, Yee (who else am I missing)
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
Here is what is on my mind going into the second half of this unusual season:

The US Men need to get on the horse. They have -0- men in qualifying position for the Olympics. Last year they saved too much work for the second qualification period.

Is Non really going to retire? She has to be rethinking it at this point. I think an argument can be made she is a better relay option than Potter for the 2nd leg in my opinion.

Finally I'll be excited to see who comes back from injury: Knibb, JB, Yee (who else am I missing)

Yee is not injured as far as I know. Dont think JB will continue in ITU, seems he had decided to step into MD.
I miss Zaferes..see if she gets back to the circuit after her first child. Learmonth is injured as far as I know too.

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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juanillo wrote:
Dont think JB will continue in ITU, seems he had decided to step into MD.

man, that sucks. I hope you are wrong.

Though that significantly improves the US' chances in MTR.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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Non vs. Potter for the relqay is likely irrelevant since if they are picking an athlete for the relay, I can't imagine it wouldn't be Sophie Coldwell, in which case your relay ladies are GTB and Coldwell... With all of the ups and downs in her career, I hope that Non goes out on top, and doesn't try to ride it out too long, and go out in injury.

The biggest horse the US men have these days tends to be Chase McQueen, if he can continue to develop, he has the swim to contend... But yeah, it's early days on olympic qualifying so too early to press the panic button, but if there's any learning from the Tokyo process, Countries shouldn't sleep on points in block one, it's not the be all and end all, but once it closes, not having many points in that window hurts in the overall rankings... The countries who lost out on the 3rd slot (e.g. GB/US Men) generally made their push in the last qualifying window, but weren't really present in the first block getting points, and shot themselves in the foot... As the months tick down on block 1 qualifying, there becomes less margin for error.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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juanillo wrote:
ajthomas wrote:
Here is what is on my mind going into the second half of this unusual season:

The US Men need to get on the horse. They have -0- men in qualifying position for the Olympics. Last year they saved too much work for the second qualification period.

Is Non really going to retire? She has to be rethinking it at this point. I think an argument can be made she is a better relay option than Potter for the 2nd leg in my opinion.

Finally I'll be excited to see who comes back from injury: Knibb, JB, Yee (who else am I missing)


Yee is not injured as far as I know. Dont think JB will continue in ITU, seems he had decided to step into MD.
I miss Zaferes..see if she gets back to the circuit after her first child. Learmonth is injured as far as I know too.

Yee took a mid season break after the Commonwealth Games. He is back into a training block now for the 2nd half of the season.

JB has said he might not be finished with ITU now he won a Gold.

That was Non’s last OD race. She is doing the SuperLeague races but no more ITU races. She is getting married in November. She is announcing next week what she is doing and she is really excited for the next chapter.

Jess is injured but might be back for the last few races of the season.

GB women is going to be another case of harder to qualify for the team than the actual Olympics.
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [SheridanTris] [ In reply to ]
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SheridanTris wrote:
That was Non’s last OD race. She is doing the SuperLeague races but no more ITU races. She is getting married in November. She is announcing next week what she is doing and she is really excited for the next chapter.

Jess is injured but might be back for the last few races of the season.

GB women is going to be another case of harder to qualify for the team than the actual Olympics.

Yeah, I know what she said, I am just hoping Non changes her mind!
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Re: Official (formerly) ITU leading to 2024 discussion thread…. [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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The qualification process allows for “bad” results to get thrown out if you race often enough, but if your the US men, if you don’t race then suddenly when you do race all your results have to count.

I mean Paris qualification will be what it’ll be, but w new Usat high performance manager coming on Sept it’ll be interest how all this goes down.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 16, 22 12:52
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