SO they are going to pay out 7 million to the series folks, and then have a separate payout for the top 50 in the rankings too?

Do you know how those top 50 payouts will compare to the 2 million in series payouts will be??? I see the top in the series is $210k, so a not so subtle shout out to ironman and their 200k payout for top dogs...

"In addition to over $3M in athlete contracts, there will be $250k up for grabs at each T100 event ($125k per gender), totalling $2M over the 8-race T100 Triathlon World Tour, plus a huge end-of-season payout total of $2M paying down to 20th – with each T100 World Champion bagging an extra $210,000 for securing the top spot."
https://t100triathlon.com/pro-series-explainer/
The 'compensation' schedule for an athlete's EoY PTO Ranking has, as far as I can discover, not been announced, but (I'm relying on memory from various PTO interviews here) I think the intention is to carry that on. I can see the payouts being flattened, which might be to the benefit of the #11-#30 list and keep the #31-#50 sum the same. The PTO don't need to reward the T100 athletes more than 3 times (contract plus T100 prize purse plus T100 Series ranking bonus).
2023: https://www.trirating.com/...riathlon-money-list/

Ok, I thought you had said it "will" be going on this year, you just think so at the moment.

I only say this as my "feeling" is that the PTO series payouts is going to replace the old top 50 ones. It seems a bit redundant to pay twice for a ranking, being that most will come from their series rankings anyway. And the other end of that is, why pay out to Ironman series folks for their achievements outside of your races? I mean it is ok to give them rankings and all, you want the ones that rise to the top to be eligible to take a contract in your series once they have made a name for themselves. But paying them doesnt seem cost effective, at least as far as your brand and what you are trying to build goes...

Why would Olympic pathway athletes like Knibb and Spivey race the Miami event? Abu Dhabi WTCS is the same weekend in March (sprint & MR events) and Knibb is on record as saying she will race in Abu Dhabi.

You're right. They are very unlikely to race Miami (pity). I had thought it might be a chance to get' one in the bag' to satisfy their T100 contracted number of races. They can race Ibiza (Sep), Las Vegas (Oct) and Dubai (Nov). But it gives them no wriggle room if they are to satisfy their contracts (three plus GF). Will Spivey try to race Superleague again?

I personally like the fact that racers like Spivey are putting the Olympic race first, no matter how much money long course organizations throw at them.

(Paradoxically, I also like the fact that she has signed up. Most exciting name on the list for me).

---

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Absolutely agree first bit. Same applies to Blummenfelt (and Iden, and Luis, and Wilde) saying 'no thanks' to the PTO (this (Olympic) year).
I fervently hope USAT give her that (deserved) second slot in the team (chance of any more US athletes AQing seems nil). Assuming completely fit again, you could not have a more reliable Leg 2 and even an accomplice for Knibb (and another?) front pack on the bike a few days earlier.
I hope that her signing the contract does not reduce her standing with the selectors: however her 2024 actions will make her primary objective crystal clear and USAT will have complete visibility.
Of course if she doesn't get the nod in May she can race T100 on the West Coast in June and London in July, and then pop over to watch her friends race Paris and cheer them on in the MTR.
Ibiza is a few days after the WTCS Final in Pontevedra (both Spain).
It will be interesting to see Spivey race in Ibiza: she'll have raced minimal/no TT. She will surely stay with LCB in the water but I shall guess not able to stay with her (or Knibb when/if she catches up) on the bike. Gentle will have some catching up to do for sure. Spivey v LCB starting the run clear would interesting: in WTCS Leeds (May 2021 pre-Tokyo) LCB was 23 seconds faster over 10km. After 80km in TT this September . . . All those coming across from Nice will be fatigued so it'll be between them (mentioned above) and an on-form Findlay.
https://wtcs.triathlon.org/...iathlon_leeds/452748

i'm with you on the payouts - it's a money-distribution system, for sure, but why specifically subsidize other series? also i've always figured that if the purpose was developing athletes and ensuring tight competition, paying out 100k year-end to athletes like lucy or jan or kristian is kind of a 'waste,' in the sense that they're already making lots of money. whereas 20k each to a handful of "nearly there" pros could really be a game changer and get them on to some big start lines.

here again with my sense that the PTO needs a really clarified purpose. if they're only an athlete's union, paying out year-end bonuses across the board makes more sense. if they're a promotional agency it makes some sense. if they're a racing series, it makes very little sense.

---

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Yes it seems a small few will make all the money, is already this way but will be even more so. Everyone else is potentially locked out of the series and decent money for their careers now due to the skewed points system.if they are not in, it is going be extremely hard to get there.

 


Paula trolling a bit

---

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Yes it seems a small few will make all the money, is already this way but will be even more so. Everyone else is potentially locked out of the series and decent money for their careers now due to the skewed points system//

This doesnt make any sense to me. There is a whole other group of pros that are going to make really great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one. And then you have another mostly separate group making pretty good money racing the ITU circuit and getting national funding. Then there is another couple million in the super league series. And on top of all that, you have Roth and several other stand alone races pros can do to earn a living. It literally is the best time ever in our sport for the most pros to be able to not only make a living, but for many of the top earners, put money away and become self sufficient after triathlon..


All this talk of just a few are getting all the dollars is just nonsense, do folks expect athlete #1000 to be making 6 figures???

I think they are doing a little bit of hedging.

I mean they can't basically "cut off" anyone else but the 16-20 in the PTO series right now because well, there may be some better athletes out there. So I think the bulk of the money is going into the T100 series and then the end of year "bonuses" goes to anyone. But then again if you do most of T100 races and those are the "best" scoring races, then by default those athletes have an advantage over the IM series athletes in terms of schedule strength.

So I think it kinda allows for this to obviously be the T100 show but also some "relegation" ability as well.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You know it's really funny as this has been done before; it's essentially LC's version of WTS/WTCS. Finally in long course racing the best will be competing against the best year round, something that ITU has been doing for years.

I think if any lessons are to be learned from ITU it is this.

1. Review your prize money every 2 or 3 years to increase with inflation. The WTCS prize money of $18k/$12k/$8k race - $30k/$22k/$16 GF and $80k/$55k/$38k Bonus pool, has more or less remained static for over 10 years. Brooks do you think this might be the kick up the arse for the ITU to review prize money to potentially stop guys like Yee and Wilde leaving?

2. Don't over reach on the number of races. The WTCS in 2015 was 10 races and athletes were not happy with the number of races, or the torturous travel due to the sequencing of the events. I think 7 or 8 events in total is the maximum for a sustainable race series.

3. Get venues that actually have a good age group weekend and have a triathlon culture that will make things pretty sustainable (I'm thinking Yokohama or Hamburg here). Otherwise these 3-5 year contracts wont be worth the paper they are written on.

4. Mix the bike courses up a bit. ITU world cup venues are so so much better than the actual premier race series. Let's reward the best cyclists not just the strongest cyclists.

1. I don't think WT has the funds to meet inflation even with the "successful" WTCS series. So I understand the lack of prize purse increases has the athletes pissed off, I just think it's a lack of funding and not from some organization not willing to share the funds. There were "rumors" that even Hamburg was going to pull out of hosting (turned out to be false), which I think is now $2mi on the host city in fees now. So I don't know that there is a ton of money being made in the WTCS series anymore.

2. With the news that the pto "contracts" are basically per race appearance fees, this will help and hurt some people. I think this will help the guys finishing in the "MOP" and quietly keep them in contention with the T10 guranteed contracts for '25 vs the handful of athletes who think/assume will race the min pto schedule to also allow for other races. So the PTO also incentivived the need to show up and race pto races with their "marketing" deals (I believe that was the term Sam called the contracts this year).

3. This is the biggest issue that PTO struggles with. Is it a matter of building your own race weekend vs "piggy backing" off an already established race venue + race setup.

4. I think a lot like WTCS now, it's always going to be venue specific. The WTCS bid requirements and the World Cup / Conti Cup level of host requirements aren't even in the same time zone. So thus boring urban race venues are the norm on WTCS while the "harder" courses are always the hard to travel to world cups it seems like. Miami speedway likely won't have any bike drama, neither will London course that apparently will likely be used. So I think there's not a ton of "hard" bike lets we are looking at anytime soon. But I think there's an ability to cause a little more "run fatigue" with the 20m gaps, so there is that; vs the straight up draft pack last 30km of bikes like at WTCS events.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

1.+ 2. On prize money I am extremely sceptical whether this is sustainable for the T100 series. I'm not really sure 100km races are actually gonna be any more or any less exciting as a WTCS race. So eventually this thing is gonna run out of steam or more likely come to a similar spot that WTCS finds itself in.

3. If you have time then build your own event. But if you don't, and they don't mark my words, then I think piggy backing and partnering is the only option.

One other thing to add. I'm not pointing any fingers, but I think if they are really trying to commercialise this, then a doping contingency plan needs to be in place. Cause there will be positives.

 then a doping contingency plan needs to be in place. Cause there will be positives.

------

I'm far too much of a cynic and realize our shit paying sport will never amount to anything real in the fight against doping. That even if tons of shanigans is going on, the chances of multiple positives is likely very rare.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Just a feeling....

But yeh even with potential positives, I too am cynical there'll be a fuck load getting away with it. Same goes for Athletics, Cycling, Swimming.

.
.
Yep,this is by far the best time ever to be a Pro triathlete. There will be "B" athletes this year making more money than they ever could five years ago and they will be riding the wave for as long as they can.I'd even go as far as to say that the T100 series has actually thrown a lifeline to the dying careers of several high profile people. Some will benefit from being included in the PTO series and some will benefit from the top tier athletes not doing the Ironman series.It is a win all around .

She also covered some routes in Ventura county that could hypothetically be used.
I seriously doubt that PTO will be allowed to put on a race in Malibu given the shenanigans with the Superleague/Epstein race thing.

---

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Agree with Monty and TU wrt the several groups of athletes that stand to make good money. Clearly the contracted T100 athletes. Also, but significantly less (qv), those in the #20-#30 long distance capable in the IM Series. And because the top PTO ranked 30 will not race any other races (more or less) all the #31-#100 athletes have plenty of opportunity to earn prize money from all the non-IM Series races, as well as Roth/Challenge/Clash ones.

"great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one" Well no. Take, as an example, the T100 athlete who finishes #10 in all their 6 races and finishes #10 in the final T100 standings (and no other race earnings). With a (say) $90k contract they will earn in total $155k. Compare that with an athlete who finishes #5 in their five IM Series races and #5 overall: $100k. NB an athlete who finishes #10 in their five IM Series races and #10 overall will earn 'not much'. https://t100triathlon.com/pro-series-explainer/ https://www.ironman.com/...es-race-series#bonus https://files.constantcontact.com/...4e0-db1ef125530f.pdf
"do folks expect athlete #1000 to be making 6 figures?" I looked at the 50+ best ranked US athlete: they seemed to have won zero prize money. Professional? (There are 107 listed)

Perhaps Thorsten could do a piece on the 51-100 'top' earners from 2023? Focus on the 'many' rather than the 'few'.
https://www.trirating.com/deep-dive-into-the-2023-triathlon-money-list/
(Athletes like Ryf, Chevalier and Long made circa $100k last year (prize money plus PTO EoY bonus).


"the dying careers of several high profile people" Who had you in mind @ThailandUltras? Bit disrespectful to T100's Gomez and Brownlee. McNamee per'aps? Or are you saying Haug's career is on the decline now she's 40+, or that Ryf would've given up without T100? Or are trying to say Sanders without saying 'Sanders'? In which latter case the 'all encompassing' thread is that way > > >

The top 20 will make plenty of money guaranteed by PTO. But they were already. The #20-40(50?) are the real winners, via the other opportunities around (which are better paid than before in terms of money, but not depth, and there are less of those races actually, thus they will concentrate those racers).
The #50+ was struggling before, and is not doing any better now. We can argue whether they should or not, but we're talking #80 making losses, which is very far from "#1000 making 6 figures". Growing the sports? (See UCI moving to minimum salaries...)

What I'm personally disappointed about is not the lack of money, but rather the circle closing around a top few, and the lack of opportunities to race the world bests. The gap between podium at amateur races easily and professional races is just widening, with no space in-between. I never made a living out of triathlon, reached #155 at my best right after 9th in Roth, but enjoyed lining up at Frankfurt between Jan and Patrick, riding 50k with Sebi in Roth, and many more chances to get challenged by the world champions... This looks unlikely this year.
(I understand many A-pros and fans think differently, but by talking with people ranked ~ #80-300 this sentiment is quite present as well)

---

https://besse.info/
https://www.strava.com/athletes/2012033

I certainly agree with your assessment, in many aspects.

Statement #1: PTO budget for T100 participation money (appearance fee + accommodation being covered), race prize money and bonus prize money is >2-4x bigger than what IM offers to pros. Then there's also the PTO end-of-year bonus and the IM prize money outside of their series.

Statement #2: Sanders would've had his ass handed over to him every PTO race. His PTO race results have been: #7, #11, #21 (#20, if you strike through Collin Chartier). His #11 in PTO US Open remains his best scoring result of 2023. This just isn't his distance to shine. He might get and accept a wild card though, a proper win-win situation for both PTO (media attention) and LS ($).

What I'm personally disappointed about is not the lack of money, but rather the circle closing around a top few, and the lack of opportunities to race the world bests.

----------

The only events that is "closed" is now the current PTO series right? Hell now that the IM series is a real thing, this is actually the opportunity for long course athletes to race each other much more often. So I think what we've now done is actually create events where the world's best are racing more often. If that means the fringe guys get pinched out, so be it. But the overall health of professional ranking is much greater now than ever before. As far as I know the IM pro series is open to any professional, so now you actually have the chance to race "world class" fields in non-world championship races more often than just the world championship races.


(Of course this is all on thin ice it seems *if* PTO goes away, we all think IM Series as it is now will "go away" as well).

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I have Vitoria and Frankfurt on my schedule. We'll see how it turns out

---

https://besse.info/
https://www.strava.com/athletes/2012033

"great money from the new ironman series, literally as much as the PTO one" Well no.//


Not sure why you cherry picked certain places to make an argument against me, my statement was an overall $$ one. Think if you look at the winner of the ironman series, it will stack up pretty nice in the grand scheme of top earners this year.


And if what you say is true(will stipulate to your math and research, thanks), then that just means more folks will make some money vs just the top taking most in the PTO series. I see that complaint a lot, and in this thread even, so there is that.