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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Yes I think more people will pay for an specific triathlon coverage at a more affordable price point similiar to triathlon live (~$45/year). But again the $90 price point for you to watch the coverage isn't paying just for triathlon on demand. Your getting their entire inventory, thus it's more expensive than just triathlon coverage. ITU had 315k subscribers either in annual or monthly. Yes I think you could get 1/6th or 1/8th of that at $50 a pop and help offset some of the 7 figure costs it likely has to broadcast 20 events.

It's covering expenses because Outside likely said as part of the finanical agreement- we will give you X money to be broadcast partner in US in exchange, we need specific terms of the agreement. Thus no longer is the tri content free for eternity. If you want to watch it free, you watch it live. If you don't, you have to pay for our service. Again that's likely how they are able to support doubling their race broadcast schedule.

I don't think the broadcast lost tons of sponsors. They've never had a ton of sponsors to begin with, so your point on happy sponsors is irrelevant. They had 5 sponsors that we counted during the broadcast.

Your stuck on subscribers.....subscribers isn't what is going to pay IM. It's the financial agreement Outside is willing to pay them to be the exclusive broadcast partner, so again I don't really think you understand it completely. Your caught up on the wrong thing. Outside is the one that is likely going to lose out on likely not gaining a ton of new subscribers from this financial deal. They are the ones that are likely to only gain $30k-$90k that we theorized. And I'm guessing the contract was easily 6 figures between Outside and IM, there is a reason why they were able to afford to double their broadcast inventory. It would take 333 people to want to buy Outside subscription for them to make $30k, and then $90k they would only need 1k people. So for Outside with their subscritipn being $90, you don't need a ton of people to subscribe to it, so in that aspect it likely works for them as well. They don't need a ton of subscribers from this (which is the point we agree upon)

So your point about sacking the person- guess what that person is going to be at Outside, not at IM. Outside has paid IM to be the exclusive partner for this series. IM has it's money from that agreement. The subscribers money will then go to Outside. So I think your stuck on the wrong information. IM has made an agreement that has Outside paying them to be the broadcast partner. I certainly don't think it covers all the expenses of it, but it certainly covers way more than $90k. IM wouldn't be broadcasting their races if it wasn't. They'd simply make you follow on the tracker.

Let's just say it's a $1mi contract between Outside and IM. Outside would need ~11k subscribers to "break even" on the deal. If it was $500k, they would need ~6.5k subscribers from the deal. So it's not really like they need a ton of subscribers to make it work for them either.

So if your going to call me a troll, or come with witty comebacks, atleast make sure you understand what you are arguing for and against. It's ok to not understand the fiances of it, but your "should be free" aint how the world worlks. And again IM has already gotten paid by Outside so they can be the broadcast partner. That's how contracts work. Pick any sport you want, and whoever broadcasts it, they paid said sport to broadcast it. Subscribers $$ is an Outside problem, not IM.

tldnr
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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We don't know Outsides motives in buying the right to broadcast Ironman. I'm assuming Outside, like PTO has some boondoggle swindler investment play happening. And they have almost no way to attract subscribers.

So they show their investors this is how they advertise their own product. By losing money buying subscribers hoping they can show another group of lazy investors how much growth they have.

It's investment turtles all the way down.
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Yes I think more people will pay for an specific triathlon coverage at a more affordable price point similiar to triathlon live (~$45/year). But again the $90 price point for you to watch the coverage isn't paying just for triathlon on demand. Your getting their entire inventory, thus it's more expensive than just triathlon coverage. ITU had 315k subscribers either in annual or monthly. Yes I think you could get 1/6th or 1/8th of that at $50 a pop and help offset some of the 7 figure costs it likely has to broadcast 20 events.

It's covering expenses because Outside likely said as part of the finanical agreement- we will give you X money to be broadcast partner in US in exchange, we need specific terms of the agreement. Thus no longer is the tri content free for eternity. If you want to watch it free, you watch it live. If you don't, you have to pay for our service. Again that's likely how they are able to support doubling their race broadcast schedule.

I don't think the broadcast lost tons of sponsors. They've never had a ton of sponsors to begin with, so your point on happy sponsors is irrelevant. They had 5 sponsors that we counted during the broadcast.

Your stuck on subscribers.....subscribers isn't what is going to pay IM. It's the financial agreement Outside is willing to pay them to be the exclusive broadcast partner, so again I don't really think you understand it completely. Your caught up on the wrong thing. Outside is the one that is likely going to lose out on likely not gaining a ton of new subscribers from this financial deal. They are the ones that are likely to only gain $30k-$90k that we theorized. And I'm guessing the contract was easily 6 figures between Outside and IM, there is a reason why they were able to afford to double their broadcast inventory. It would take 333 people to want to buy Outside subscription for them to make $30k, and then $90k they would only need 1k people. So for Outside with their subscritipn being $90, you don't need a ton of people to subscribe to it, so in that aspect it likely works for them as well. They don't need a ton of subscribers from this (which is the point we agree upon)

So your point about sacking the person- guess what that person is going to be at Outside, not at IM. Outside has paid IM to be the exclusive partner for this series. IM has it's money from that agreement. The subscribers money will then go to Outside. So I think your stuck on the wrong information. IM has made an agreement that has Outside paying them to be the broadcast partner. I certainly don't think it covers all the expenses of it, but it certainly covers way more than $90k. IM wouldn't be broadcasting their races if it wasn't. They'd simply make you follow on the tracker.

Let's just say it's a $1mi contract between Outside and IM. Outside would need ~11k subscribers to "break even" on the deal. If it was $500k, they would need ~6.5k subscribers from the deal. So it's not really like they need a ton of subscribers to make it work for them either.

So if your going to call me a troll, or come with witty comebacks, atleast make sure you understand what you are arguing for and against. It's ok to not understand the fiances of it, but your "should be free" aint how the world worlks. And again IM has already gotten paid by Outside so they can be the broadcast partner. That's how contracts work. Pick any sport you want, and whoever broadcasts it, they paid said sport to broadcast it. Subscribers $$ is an Outside problem, not IM.


tldnr[/quote]

rather childish comment if i may say so
i would say the points brooks make are potentially correct. i have no idea if they are but i would fire a guy that thinks that ironman would be so stupid to do a deal that earns them 30 k from a subscription model, if they gave outsider exclusive rights they do that for big money .
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to you as the last post in the thread --

I did some mild pruning in here this morning because, well, apparently people can't be nice to one another.

Save some of the name calling for the playground. This isn't 'Nam. There are rules.

Brooks (and yours) analysis on this is spot on.

----------------------------------
Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]
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It's a no brainer if you are Outside. Your whole brand as a network is skiing, backpacking, fishing, you know outdoorsy stuff. It's the same reason why 30 years ago they wanted in on the TdF coverage when Lance was racing. So I atually don't think they have any swindler investments, this is their identity as a network to a T. And again because the package is $90, they don't need a bunch of subscribers from us triathlon nerds to make it as an good investment.

And yes while it's expensive to broadcast races, for an network like Outside easily has the revenue to cover the costs of what a likely high 6 figure deal or 7 figure deal. It's not like there's only 11k people world wide watching Outside. A quick google search showed in 2021 they had 500k subscribers paying $70 a month for their service (price at the time in 2021), so they have the money to throw at IM. So it's very likely that everyone is happy with this agreement, except for the people who don't watch it live. And I get it.....I haven't paid for cable tv for almost 12 years now. I ain't paying $90 to watch a IM Pro race that I miss, so when that race is in Aussie in what June, I ain't watching it at 2:30am my local time. So I'll just have to wake up and tune in super late or simply go read ST's recap, or look at the tracker for how it played out.

If you use the ITU broadcast costs as a "guide" (just using a known broadcast number)- it's $250k to broadcast an WTCS race. Now that does not include advertising during their telecasts, so Outside is lowering costs by having what 4 additional advertisers. But if you used that as a guide, if you did it for 20 races, that's ~$5mi just as "rough estimate". For a network like Outside, that's certainly not an cost that is going to bankrupt them. If you just went with $5mi as a best guess, they would need 39k subscribers from this investment to break even. Again with likely advertisers, they likely are invested even less, which means they need less subscribers to buy in to make it worth their time. And keep in mind, this is also inventory for their current subscribers, the 500k people who are "outdoorsy" people as well who likely can potentially watch it as well to also stay as a happy subscriber.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Apr 8, 24 5:49
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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At least from what I can find on Google a quick search says they have 5-6 million in revenue a year.

That's the what I'd expect in terms of revenue to sustain the costs/income for putting on all the Ironman race broadcasts. Not that plus everything else they do.

My hunch is they are sitting on a shrinking pile of money, but Ironman races provide a direct boost of a couple thousand subscribers every few months or so that they can tell investors it is their best source of new customers.
Last edited by: Lurker4: Apr 8, 24 6:05
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [irondave] [ In reply to ]
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irondave wrote:
I saw her on the bike course, walking in the opposite direction to us, in the grass, with her bike shoes in her hand. Forget at what point in the ride. Not sure if it was a mechanical, or what. I hope she finds her mojo. On breakfast with Bob for Oceanside she talked about her race experience at the T100, and the words she was using, and lack of support she had were issues. In life we need to maximize performance when the cards are stacked against us. With that strategy, we can overcome. I hope she continues to persevere, and comes out stronger. Like Lionel at awards today spoke about he had a terrible workout last Saturday and was ready to throw in the towel. Look how well he raced today. Amazing what we as humans can achieve. Who would have picked him to smoke all these fast guys. Yet he did, had a great race, and I am really looking forward to seeing his race report with Talbot, and actually admitting that his plan is working, and more importantly that he is sticking with the plan.


I saw Tamara Jewett walking towards the aid station on Basilone located a few miles after hell hill. I had just made a pit stop at the portaloo and was getting back to my bike when I noticed someone walking with bike in hand. I asked if they were ok before realizing who it was, and then said "Oh my gosh, Tamara, I'm so sorry! Are you okay?". She replied that she was and wished me good luck which I appreciated and remember thinking was a really classy way to respond considering how disappointed she must have been feeling.
Last edited by: tripolar: Apr 8, 24 6:40
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]
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One of the talking points in all of sports is ratings or viewership numbers (crucial for advertising). Here in the US we are likely to find out that NCAA WBB is going to have likely a 15mi viewers for this SC vs Iowa final. I think I saw a stat that said the Iowa vs LSU game last weekend, had nearly 13mi viewers which was the most watched basketball game ever on the ESPN family, and out viewed every pro game this past year outside of NBA and NFL.

Online platforms sorta make it a little harder to get accurate numbers, but I wish that data was publicly available like it is on network tv (yes you can get social content downloads, but for some events that data stays private). And of course with any data point you can sometimes stretch the actual truth. You look at the ITU numbers- I know they have 315k subscribers, but what's the breakdown of annual vs 1 time viewer. Even at 10% difference that's $1mi dollar difference which if you hear all the rumblings about the difficulties the ITU is going through with getting host countries (it's $1mi just to WT not including their own costs within running the event), stuff like this starts to matter. Which is why another thing like finding cheaper venues is only going to be more and more important going forward; even for IM. Costs to run races is only increasing, whether we want to accept it or not.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [tripolar] [ In reply to ]
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tripolar wrote:
irondave wrote:
Changpao wrote:
drluke12 wrote:
Where did Tamara Jewitt go?
Does anybody know the answer to this question? I didn’t hear anything.
I saw her on the bike course, walking in the opposite direction to us, in the grass, with her bike shoes in her hand. Forget at what point in the ride. Not sure if it was a mechanical, or what. I hope she finds her mojo.
I saw Tamara Jewett walking towards the aid station on Basilone located a few miles after hell hill. I had just made a pit stop at the portaloo and was getting back to my bike when I noticed someone walking with bike in hand. I asked if they were ok before realizing who it was, and then said "Oh my gosh, Tamara, I'm so sorry! Are you okay?". She replied that she was . . .
So why did Jewett retire half way through the ride. She exited the swim with EPB and then lost time each split, before finally disappearing from the tracker, a long time later.
Given she was the returning last year's winner it would have been good if the commentators had given her a passing nod. I'll rephrase @drluke12 and @Changpao 's enquiry: 'Why did Jewett retire?'

Jewett went 'full time' from Christmas 2022, had a great race beating IMWC Sodaro, finishing off with a 1:13 flat in an overall time less than Knibb this year, please note.
Everyone (more or less) went whoa, she'll be a force from now on. After Oceanside 2023, 5 weeks later had a good Ibiza in #6 (just ahead of Lee btw) but in the/her main races (Milwaukee and Lahti) she just leaked time on the bike for #10 and #11. Step change better than her 2022 form but not what Oceanside heralded for 2023.
Swimming OK but bike handling (as she admitted to BB) is still a (my words) work in progress.
https://stats.protriathletes.org/athlete/tamara-jewett
Last edited by: Ajax Bay: Apr 8, 24 9:51
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Not that this is much of a secret to anyone around here but Dan Lorang is indeed Taylor Knibb’s new coach.


Last edited by: Lagoon: Apr 8, 24 11:28
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [Lagoon] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting stat as I was looking at the overall women pro results, 27th place lost less points to 2nd place, than 2nd did to first..Really does showcase that choosing a race where there will not be an off the front winner, is more important than the actual depth of field, or the course for that matter....

For a few of the ladies here that are going for the series bonus, this likely will have to be a throw away race, including 2nd place even!!!! At least it wasn't an ironman, a lot easier to throw in one more half than a full, especially when 3 fulls are already required...
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Interesting stat as I was looking at the overall women pro results, 27th place lost less points to 2nd place, than 2nd did to first..Really does showcase that choosing a race where there will not be an off the front winner, is more important than the actual depth of field, or the course for that matter....

For a few of the ladies here that are going for the series bonus, this likely will have to be a throw away race, including 2nd place even!!!! At least it wasn't an ironman, a lot easier to throw in one more half than a full, especially when 3 fulls are already required...

Knibb definitely “blew the curve” for the rest of the field.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Interesting stat as I was looking at the overall women pro results, 27th place lost less points to 2nd place, than 2nd did to first..Really does showcase that choosing a race where there will not be an off the front winner, is more important than the actual depth of field, or the course for that matter....

For a few of the ladies here that are going for the series bonus, this likely will have to be a throw away race, including 2nd place even!!!! At least it wasn't an ironman, a lot easier to throw in one more half than a full, especially when 3 fulls are already required...
First, on the maths. Only the top 13 WPro scored any points (2500/60=). (For the men it was the top 54, btw.)
https://stats.protriathletes.org/...ifornia/2024/results
WPros taking over 5 hours for a 70.3! Or indeed MPros taking over 4:15!

Most of the top 10 are middle distance only athletes so the Series stuff/points is of passing interest. EPB and Findlay are T100 athletes so they won't being doing many more 70.3s this year.
Really it's only Langridge of the Oceanside top 10 who are contenders for top 10 in the IM Pro Series. Athletes ranked #11 - #50 get an EoY $5k.
https://proseries.ironman.com/...-series-how-it-works

Langridge has plenty of opportunity, as you say, to race another 70.3 where she'll score better for sure. In fact if I was advising her, I'd recommend two more summer 70.3s as she'll struggle in Taupo and likely score lower than in (say) Les Sables or Tallinn. She's racing Texas in 18 days (against Matthews(?), Stage Nielsen, Berry, McCauley, Alberts).
The top women (PTO ranked top 30) who race an IM and a 70.3 (to validate or gain a IMWCQ, but must both be Pro Series ones) and then place/race well in both Nice and Taupo will score very good points with just those 4 races.
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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As a small curiosity, Ironman has removed all PRO results from the site and the 2024 Oceanside results are now displayed as if it was an all-AG race.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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A Fighting Chance (pre-Oceanside) but released on 9 April (!!):

Last edited by: Ajax Bay: Apr 9, 24 13:04
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, haven't gone thru all 15 pages, and was away for most of the weekend, so maybe this was all said, but 100% agree with you (first the actual location is a red herring - done the race 10 times, and whether it was the previous radar gun and someone with a flag and was not enforced, or the more recent timing mats, it's been crystal clear where it starts and stops, f you are heads up racing)

But I agree on the can of worms. My understanding since the advent of the timing mats is that it is automatic, and there is no discretion. Pass "A" to "B" in X;XX minus one second, DQ. At or over X:XX = fine. I doubt there is a person looking at every split, and believe it to be automatic (might not be).

They say the timing mats for Currie and Pallant read "X:XX". That means "everyone's" time would read the same differential for their particular speed - unless there was some magical glitch that only affected them? But then Currie and Pallant can show contrary data with a GPS (we all know how accurate those are)? I mean, I ain't no genius but if I'm told there are two measurements, and one is wrong.... Every single AGer that has been DQ'd (Bernardi looking at you!) should have appealed if IM's timing is so far off.

On Michellie Jones' FB feed talking about this, a mention was made that they only DQ'd those going way over the limit. I know, total hearsay, but that's even worse! A speed limit with no set speed? Just have to guess how far over you can go? I mean on the 405 you can drive 65 in a 55 and pretty much guaranteed not to get pulled over. But still could. Is it like that?

And another thing, IM charges $50 to appeal (at least that's what Pallant paid, maybe it's a pro thing only?). Shouldn't IM give that money back if the appeal is successful? Like an NFL challenge flag? Leave it to IM to demand $50 to prove they are wrong. Prevent frivolous appeals by charging the card, then if upheld keep the money. If not, refund it.
Last edited by: ChrisM: Apr 9, 24 18:43
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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I had a thought about this that no one has brought up, and it could just be wrong readout. I mean several here have said the pros had a 35mph as a max, vs the 25 for AG'ers. What if the program had them at the AG speed limit? It would be an easy mistake I suppose, and of course once figured out, and easy one to reverse, like what happened with the two athletes. It would also explain why we havent heard about any AG'ers getting their reversed too..

Anyway just a thought....
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty I thought the same thing initially as a possibility. But Currie and Brown (sorry,referred to her as Pallant above) would have been waaaay ahead of any AGers, and they are well known triathletes. They wouldn't have had to file a normal appeal. Imagine having to pay $50 to prove you're a pro?

So yeah, thought about that but it does not make sense

Something is not right about this whole thing (and I'm not even a conspiracy theorist LOL)
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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Yes but it might not have been a thing of when you hit the mats, but what the computer registered. I assume it is just a math thing between mats, and they also get the chip of the athlete, so what if their chips accidentally read as AG'ers? I mean at some point there were pros and AG'ers going over the mats at the same time, so something in the computer must have been sorting them, no???
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. But do they really have to institute a formal appeal for that? That seems over the top especially since they have to pay for it. That make IM look even worse. I’d expect they are able to re categorise a chip between pro and AG ranks with the push of a button
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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With the streamlining of the rules with IM and WT, the $50 protest fee is standard fee. However they should have gotten the money back if they win the appeal (WT rules say athletes get payment back).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [monty] [ In reply to ]
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According to the guys on the PTN podcast, apparently Ironman had placed the mats in slightly different positions than previous years and therefore couldn't be confident enough in the timing/speed calculations? Not a very satisfying excuse but oh well.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
According to the guys on the PTN podcast, apparently Ironman had placed the mats in slightly different positions than previous years and therefore couldn't be confident enough in the timing/speed calculations? Not a very satisfying excuse but oh well.

Then I assume they didn’t enforce any speeding DQs. That’s the only fair outcome here

And pretty amazing. Those timing mats have been put there literally for years
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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It makes complete sense for them to say they won't flag any racers who are up to 5 or even 10% over to account for measurement error.

They don't need to publish that though.

In reality they say the speed limit is X, but they only enforce it if the racer is X+10%
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Re: Oceanside Livestream and Race Day Posts (6 April) [] [ In reply to ]
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Chelsea Burns' interviewing Knibb (excellent):
https://podcasts.apple.com/...he-burn/id1734243615
Scroll to later for the Oceanside bit, but plenty of insights (including her coaching change (O'Brien > Lorang and the interregnum), Dibbens' influence and pontoon position choice, boring Paris course, drug testing)
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