lurching back to Lionel and his swim ...

i find training for a long distance swim (even anything longer than say 400m) VERY difficult in a 25m pool. And then only recently did I ever experience a 25y pool. It felt kind of ridiculous - endless turning. Absolutely no ability to work on long continuous efforts. I always wonder whether doing all his swimming in a tiny 25y pool hurts his efforts to improve his swimming.

Any thoughts on this issue? Aside from sending me completely insane, I think long distance swimming must be next to impossible...

If i were him Id spend a full nthn hemisphere winter in noosa with JR , and the open water scene in sth east qld ...

.
.
There is nothing wrong with training in a 25meter pool for long course.races. I lived in Penticton in Canada for about 13 summers and the local 25meter pool was just fine for a bunch of Ironman's and Ultraman's.I have a choice of training in the busy Noosa pool 12k away or the quiet Coolum pool 250meters away...I choose Coolum.

I very much doubt Lionel would pack up the wife,kid and assorted others and move to Noosa for three months nor do I think he would leave them at home,it would not only interrupt his established set-up and screw with the whole family but it may just cost more than he will earn in prizemoney this year.

Why would a 25 m or y pool not be good for long efforts? As long as the turn and push off is not a mini break but a turn and push off…

---

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Because your form resets with every turn and push and you get 7m of great gliding form on either end which leaves about 10m of swimming in your "natural" form. Even if he's not doing a couple dolphin kicks and intentionally trying to make the most of the wall kick, that push still tightens your body up in to a more efficient position. If he only has 10m of swimming each lap where his posture is not aided by the flip turn I could see how that his gains in the pool don't translate well to open water. He gets faster at turning and holding good posture around the turns and thinks, "I'm getting better at swimming " (which would be true) and then swims the same speed in open water as he always did.

I wonder if something as simple as counting strokes in a race and every 15-20 strokes intentionally surging and stretching his posture out like he had just kicked off the wall is a good queue?

I don't agree. ALL world class swimmers and top swimming triathletes spend most of their swimming "lives" in 25 m or even 25 yd pools hence they develop their technique and foundation swimming "only 10 m" as you claim (I think you are off, unless you are talking about a world class SCM/SCY final race). Even if he had Phelps turns, he could simply surface early and focus on swimming more.

Sure, 50 m pool is awesome and better, but ultimately it is not open water either.

If he can't improve his swimming in a 25 m/yd pool (and I think it is way too late), it will continue to reflect in the open water.

I'm not saying you can't improve or use a 25m or yd pool for that matter. I'm just saying the wall becomes a natural crutch in the process. I thought it was pretty well established that the 25m pool was quicker and 50m does a better job of engraining the continuous swimming habits that are in open water swimming. Again, I'm sure some athletes can force themselves to learn good form. And other world class swimmers (lol, obviously) don't fall apart in a 25m pool. But I also think it's obvious what Lionel needs to learn most is swimming not pushing off a wall. Although, yes, you can make the case that pushing off the wall can actually teach him good posture and he just needs to learn to hold it so the more reps he gets doing that the better he'll be overall. Fair enough.

95% of the world is swimming only in short course pools (y or m). LC is certainly more ideal because you are actually "swimming" more per distance; lol it's why swimmers *hate* LC season; that advantage off the wall where they are so powerful is gone by 50%. So for the most part you as an athlete have to do with what you have. Hell some areas of the world "open water" is not even an option, so you then have to be smart with bringing open water skills to the pool (swimming side by side / throwing a few pool toys in the water to break up your stroke / add sighting). Of course that certainly will get you the side eye from "real" swimmers, but each profession sorta has specific needs that are different (obviously). Swimming only open water even if you had that as option probaly would be the hardest pathway to improve because you don't have the ability to really work on stroke mechanics, unless it was basically an open water pool setup (Quarry style with lane ropes that can still allow wave action to mess with you vs swim pools w/ lane lines that basically absorb a lot of wave action in each lane).

Funny enough in the pandemic at our local lake. I went out to the swim hole (that was suddenly very popular) and created 50m "lanes". The funny part was the actual real swim teams that were using the lake cus that's the only water they could get were basically just swimming hte parameter of the lake as their workouts. So it was kinda funny turn of tide....the geeky triathlon team was doing more "swim workouts" in the lake than the swim team that was just "swimming" lol.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I definitely agree one CAN train, and make a lot of progress, in a 25m pool. My thoughts were just that for someone desperate to bridge up to a world class long distance triathlon swim, spending all your time in a 25y pool (yes I think dropping from 25m to 25y is noticeable!) might be an issue.

For most regular people we use the facilities available to us. But he's professional, and has already moved to Arizona. I didn't mean Noosa specifically, just somewhere with absolutely world class swim facilities, and some of the best triathlon swimmers and pool swimmers in the world. Noosa is an example, where the best swimmers in the sport (frodeno, Currie etc), specifically travel to do extended swim training blocks. There would be other options too.

I know that for competitive pool swimmers, the vast majority are racing very short races vs a triathlon. What fraction of pool swimmer are targeting a 800m/1500m? Its very small. Also, training for short course racing is a thing in itself. Swimming 10s then turning, then repeat, and repeat, etc etc just isn't the same.

Ya, I don't think it's a very controversial point. And it at least provides another storyline for Lionel and possibly a free vacation for Talbot to go and see what all this 50m pool stuff is about. Maybe that can be the eureka moment after the latest aero gains fall to the background!

I would actually counter he doesn't need any of that. Again what his coach said is exactly what he needs- STFU and just show up every day; whether that's a 25y or 50m pool is more semantics imo. There's no real point in swimming with "world class" athletes if your basically not going to be able to take advantage of said athletes and sets. LS is in the "intermediate" lane if you are talking about world class being in the "fast" / advanced lane. They wouldn't even be on the same send off. So all he would be doing is taking advantage of the vibes not really swimming on Frodo's feet for every swim set. What a world class swimmer and what an athlete still trying to figure it out may not be exactly the same. LS is not going to get better just trying to swim on Frodo's feet every day, that will only likely cause even more mental failure gymanstics for an athlete to go through.

So in theory your plan sounds awesome, the actual execution of it? I don't think it would accomplish what you think it would accomplish for any athlete who isn't already world class level swimmer. So unless your just suggesting vibes/osmosis/trainingcation that's about all it would really accomplish.

Don't overthink, sometimes putting your head down and just doing work can accomplish the same thing (especially if you never truly have gone that route).


There was a story about an tennis player growing up in war torn Eastern Euro country. They didn't even have a net, they just learned the sport, practiced the sport. I don't think LS has gotten his body position figured out for it to then deep dive on why he's not gotten better. Do that 1st and then I think you can worry about the distance of the pool he's using.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Good news is he is still pursuing the aero stuff.

I sure appreciate that you pay attention to this post Marc!!!! :)

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

This thread is the most entertaining on ST.

It is truly amazing how good Lionel would be if he just listened to this thread hahahahaha ;)

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Ari Klau is doing just this. Going to Noosa to train with JR for eight weeks.

---

Let food be thy medicine...

I'm guessing it won't happen, but it would be pretty hilarious if Ari passes Lionel in the swim. Unfortunately, at least from the youtuber videos I've watched, I don't get the vibe that Ari has the masochistic ethic(?) to get that much better at swimming. And I don't mean that as an insult. The guy seems to enjoy life. What a miserable suffer-thon it must be to try to build up to the 50,000m weeks for months(?) in a row to get those big gains. Happy to be wrong if all it takes is just getting some good onhands coaching and 20,000m a week though.

There's a professional swim squad that trains at Mona Plummer on ASU's campus. Why go to Noosa? Wouldn't be surprised if there are pros that train at U of A. But also there are tons of pros training in Oro Valley and at Aqua Bear. Not sure the pool is the issue. Or even the squad.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Ah, but Ari is following the youtuber storyline plot. Content is king.

Haha you guys make it out like Noosa would be horrible place to spend a few months for a big swim block. Heaven forbid someone from Tucson might suffer through a visit :)

Wow the Mona Plummer facilities look incredible. What an amazing resource.

Anyways, perhaps I overestimate the downsides of training for very long swims in a very short pool. In my subjective experience I definitely spend some big fraction of every lap just carrying my speed from the turn. It just would not surprise me if some big fraction of your time and energy is being spent on something that is not important when you race. Pool swimmers train where they race, and they race short events compared to triathlon.

It came across my mind as an avenue to pursue. I understand it's almost certainly NOT going to actually happen. No worries at all if my sense for that is off.

By the way, sth East qld is a bit of a special place - aside from the amazing year round weather and facilities, it has a crazy concentration of high end swimming. Not just the Olympic squads, but a huge open water scene, the crazy strong ironman scene (ie surf life saving ironman, the strongest surf swimmers in the world), as well as the triathletes there. A pretty unique place to find real expertise, experience, and company if you want to push your swimming hard.

I'm guessing this increased interest in Noosa/JR is off the back of the TTH podcast where Jack Kelly and Fred Funk discuss Lionel and mention he should do just that.

X2

Forget about pros, for someone swimming hard on 1:20s, 1:15s, or heck even 1:10/100 SCM pace, there shouldn't be an issue to find a competitive swim squad somewhere in town with a bunch of kids swimming that level. If swimming a bit faster than tat, well then you are in the same league as the likes of Frodo, Luis, Schoeman and we wouldn't be talking about this.

It's not the pool, squad, coach, volume. LS has done all of that, seriously, more seriously right now than most pros who even have swim background.

Joining a 'better' squad is unlikely to help him either - he's already at Aqua bears - for sure there are plenty of guys and squads there that are slightly faster than him.

Jack and Fred are a bit out of their depth then, that's an incredible amount of effort to unass his family and get to Noosa which won't do him any better than the resources he has available to him.

Unfortunately, he's a in different stage of life.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Arizona State U. (ASU) is where Bob Bowman (coach of Michael Phelps from age 12 onward) coaches both the men's and women's teams. The men's team includes Leon Marchand, a French swimmer who broke Phelps's 400 LCM IM world record last summer. From what I've read, the top swimmers there are going 80-100,000 yd/m per week. They train in the 25 yd pool for winter season, then 50 m in spring/summer. And ya they do have a pro swimming group there in addition to college teams. I think that Phelps helps out with some practices.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

There would literally not be a lane in that pool Lionel could keep up with. That training group is better than most national teams...lol I get the idea - but...it wouldn't help...

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!