So LS just posted a swim workout where a "PhD Physio" did his lactate testing while he swam. Where I am confused is they graphed it and then labelled his LT2 at the 2mmol/L mark. Shouldn't that be LT1? I have no plans to do any of this testing but from what I have read over the years, I was under the asumption that LT1 (Aerobic Threshold) was at approx 2mmol and LT2 (Anaerobic Threshold) was at approx 4mmol. Am I understanding this incorrectly? Appreciate any explanation.

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Cheers, Ray

The point labelled LT2 on that chart is the inflection point of the Lactate curve calculated using DMAX method.

There seems to be many interpretations of where LT2 is, some say it's at the inflection of that curve. Ignore LT2 label, it's the inflection point.

I liked the “head of aero and data analysis” title he gave you!

Pwraddr wrote:

I liked the “head of aero and data analysis” title he gave you!

LOL.....he asked me to plot his data. I am now a youtube data producer :-) I am kidding.

DISCLOSURE : I know sweet FA on on "the" where to label LT1, LT2, MLSS, CP .....bla bla bla. I simply did the inflection point via DMAX and some scientists seem to find that data point useful and some call it LT2.

I will let the smarter people decide what the inflection point represents.

here is one interpretation
http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/...ional-threshold.html



I think what is trying to do, out of curiosity more than anything, is see if his curve changes as his swim progresses

To add to your post...what I find a little odd is that Canyon (a company that has plenty of muscle in the market and one that many pros would like to be sponsored by) would not insist that the athlete they are sponsoring IS compliantly doing wind tunnel testing and any other testing in order to deliver the best results on their product.

I stopped watching most Lionel Youtube videos because it really bothers me how negative he is about himself. It is too much to listen to and I am shocked he achieved the results he has with so much negative self talk.

I do think it is very impressive what he has achieved. What gets little attention, but in my mind was an incredible achievement is his 1 hour velodrome TT Canadian record. There were some impressive pro cyclists that held that record before him and Lionel did not take the record by a few meters....he put in substantial distance.

I think there are likely few examples of pro triathletes that are able to "punish" themselves with pain the way Lionel appears to do to bring out his absolute best performance.

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

This video brought to you by FORM Goggles. Shave seconds off your pace and minutes off your race.

That aside this was a super informative for lactate and swimming. It's fairly straightforward in cycling an running where effort=pace. I'm sure it also has something to do with the density of water. But his chart at the end shows a characteristic inflection point that he marks at 1:15/100, then his lactate more than doubles at 1:11.8/100. I've never seen my lactate spike to that degree in running/cycling. That's like seeing a lactate doubling spike going from 300w to 312w, or going from 6:00/m to 5:45m.

Also Lionel's low HR and low LT2 lactate are massive indicators for long-distance performance. They basically point in the direction of a massive fat burning capacity. Which is interesting given his determination to race 70.3's. I know there's a lot more to it but in isolation this graph shows much more potential for longer distances.

How does low HR relate to big fat burning capacity?

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

It doesn't. I got excited and misspoke. Threshold HR alone doesn't correlate to very much.

Does anyone? I remember the Norwegian Method thread where several heavy hitting physiologists debated on where "LT2" was and whether lactate actually meant anything in relation to sports performance.

Lionel didn't seem too invested in the specifics of the data. He basically says, "people say this curve should go to the right when I get better, so let's see what happens." He doesn't say he's going to change his training based on the data and where "LT2" is on the chart or anything.

I thought it was an entertaining video of a professional athlete doing 6x400 in a pretty sick looking pool.

He doesn't say he's going to change his training based on the data and where "LT2" is on the chart or anything.

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Well I don't think he's technically doing his swim training anymore, he's likely doing much more "listening to Gerry" workouts / "collaboration".....so his coach likely has the details. The funny thing about "test sets" is that they are good to do I think as he mentioned periodically. But basically every workout that has a "purpose" behind it is a easy way to "check" and see where you are at. Obviously there are some sessions where it's like the coach won't analyze the workout beyond a green check box of completing. And then there will be specific sets where the coach should basically know pretty accurately the expected goal times on specific sendoffs. So that's going to be the changes in the training almost assuredly. So whether LS knows what the "goal" splits will be or only after with analysis from coach (who will assuredly know the goal/expected splits for said workout), they'll be able to fairly easily know the direction it's going....even if they never do another "test set" of this again.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It can double like that in running and cycling as well. the issue is you are using speed in the pool ( very viscos) not power.

So that going from 40 km on the road to 42.2 which takes a lot more power and can send as athletes easily from a 1.6- 3.2 or even higher depending on many induvial factors. that's why someone would want to hold x pace to start x event. And why in Ironman good swimmers surge to get you into the hurt early and hopefully staying there.

The main issue you have to watch for in the water is does the athlete pace well as there is no treadmill control or power meter erg mode.

So if you swim out a 400 m at , 1:08,1:10,1:16,1:16 at what stress level did you test.

Better to have info then no info but pool testing is hard.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Honestly, the guy just doesn't seem capable of making smart decisions for the long term. I get why Canyon would keep him because he is an effective influencer and I'm sure helps move product but there are so many likable athletes these days who are well beyond him that he just isn't much of a factor to pay attention to anymore in the sport. (for me)

Almost as good as our podcast :)

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E-DUB
Chief Janitor @Slowtwitch
Life is short. Dont be mad all the time.

I think you could argue he made one of the best long-term decisions in triathlon, focusing on his popularity through his transparency with youtube. He has really capitalized on that market. Every pro-triathlete has their own youtube page now, but none compare to LS page. When thinking about staying power, I think LS will be a factor long after he retires because of the youtube brand he has built in this very niche community.

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“The answer is hard work. What are you doing on Christmas Eve? Are you riding your bike? January 1st – are you riding your bike?”- Lance Armstrong

Just FYI, Lionel said they were doing the 6 x 400 in a yards pool, not meters. His best 400 was 4:47 or about 1:11.8/100 yd. IIRC, at his best he has gone around 18:30 for 1650 yd, or 1:07.3/100 yd. He did say that he had taken it very easy for the last 3 weeks with just a few short swims so I guess he is a bit out of shape compared to his best.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Same difference just yards not meters then. Are all pools in USA 25 yards??

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Not all but the majority are 25 yds. My club is unusual in that we have an indoor 25 yd pool and an outdoor 25 m pool. Most 50 m pools are 25 yd wide for our "short course season". Interestingly, the poster waverider101 tells me that most Aussie pools are 50 m, even out in the the rural areas. They take swimming pretty seriously down under!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

This 100%

"This video brought to you by FORM Goggles. Shave seconds off your pace and minutes off your race"

Evidently not.

So you're saying you should get Lionel on your podcast ?

We would always welcome him. He and I could talk about how swimming has always been our challenge in triathlon :)

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E-DUB
Chief Janitor @Slowtwitch
Life is short. Dont be mad all the time.

My point in noting his splits is that he is going about the speed you posted for 400 m for his best 400 yd. Probably you were just throwing out numbers to illustrate the importance of pacing but still, the fact is that after about 12-13 years of swimming, LS is still a bit slow for a pro triathlete. Further, this is about the 5th time he has said he was going "get serious about improving my swim", and yet here we are again. I wish him luck but I would be shocked if he were able to get down to say 4:05 for 400 yd which is what he'd need to hang on to the back of the front pack. Swimming is hard and I just don't think he has the swim talent needed to swim that fast b/c if he did, he would have gotten fast in his first 4-5 yrs of swim training. I hope he proves me wrong. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

" the swim talent needed to swim that fast b/c if he did, he would have gotten fast in his first 4-5 yrs of swim training."

4:05 for 400yds in your first 4-5 years of swim training as an adult would be pretty talented.

Well yes but that is what a person with some swim talent can do, even starting as an adult. Taking it as a more standard 500 free, that would be about 5:07-08-ish. If you look at USMS times for the under 40 AGs, there are lots of guys under 5:10 for the 500. About half of USMS swimmers started as adults. Of course, we can't say with certainty that the AOS guys were under 5:10 but I would expect at least some were. I personally know 4 AOS guys who've gone 5:05-10 for 500. They all ran 32-33 for an open 10K and hence were at the top of local races.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

That first bit is a useless statistic and the second bit is extremely anecdotal.

I guess I just never had any swim talent as I couldn't go below 5:40 for 500yd free from age 25 to 33 of my swim career.