Not at all.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

I have a feeling you are wrong about the spin faster part to make up for a disc wheel at same watts... Hopefully bike experts can chime in

Lionel and Sam do 1500 LCM in Oro Valley today

Lionel 19:38
Sam 20:00

Would have suspected Sam was faster than Lionel last fall, so was surprised.

Also - that's not going to be good for Sam's confidence in the water for Miami I can't think. I don't know that Oro Valley is a "fast" pool but those times aren't that improved - if I'm correct LS has a PR of 18:50 or something?

Anyways - good job by the big man, can't wait to see him on a startline, and in the insta story Talbot was there so maybe video is incoming too!

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Interesting would have figured Sam would have been faster still. Wonder what his thoughts are, maybe a vid from sams side too?

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My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist

Yeah I suspected the same. Sam was swimming pretty well...although Pucon wasn't as good as IW and this isn't exactly a good sign. I was actually thinking he was going to be a good long shot for top 3 next week...this has me a little worried...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

With a disc, you will go faster at the same watts (kinda the point of using one). To go faster you need to pedal the current gear at a higher rpm (increase cadence) or shift to a bigger gear (increase gear inches).

In the case of a rear disc, the cadence increase is small (~1rpm)....but you could get a need for a larger increase if the overall savings was larger (ex. disc + latex tubes + aero frame).

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Yikes. So about a minute slower from his best time. Both will be chasing on the bike all day long in any competitive race.

Yikes. So about a minute slower from his best time. Both will be chasing on the bike all day long in any competitive race//

I think it is more towards 50 seconds off his PR, but wouldn't worry too much without any context to this race. If it was just a swim through event(probably) and not a tapered for one, then it is a respectable time for him. But really, this wasn't his problem ever, it was his take out speed. So if he has improved there, then this is plenty to keep him on feet in that 2nd pack, which really is the goal here. It is not to make the lead group, not sure where that all started. It is to be squarely in the chase pack using as little effort as possible.


And wouldn't worry about Sam's time either, it is close enough that the OW difference is what is important. There are just guys that swim over their heads from their pool times, and others that suck donkey balls once in the no black line world. I would more like to see one of their workouts that have challenge sets in them, like 10 or 15x100 on the 1;40/1;50 or so...Or a rested 100/200/400 in a meet....

Let's be honest here. However, we dice it, the 'I didn't taper & rode 8 hours yesterday' etc etc excuses are in the past.
By the lack of Instagram coverage of the immediately following the event has me thinking Sam was pissed off. I certainly hope so only to guide his swim moving forward. I'm cheering for both these athletes, but their windows to get that top step of the podium are closing fast.

I'm hopeful this means Sanders can hang on to that chase pack come Kona time.

Here's the thing. He's already said he's all in for Kona. So if he keeps the swim volume up all year without falling apart or going insane... then he could end up scary fast come time for Kona.

I hope he doesn't just look at this swim training as a start of year thing he can move on from. If he does, I expect him to lose it all by kona.

In my swim coaching brain I went to the splits to see how the swim broke down for each and surprised that the Sunday events results are still not up. When they are (if they get uploaded) I'll include the 100-200 opening paces just to get a glimps of how their races may have unfolded.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Totally - at least same posted a video of himself giving Lionel $100. I don't know that I could see Lionel asking for that bet, I could be wrong but good to see Sam at least having a good laugh about it. I truly want to see him make a lot of noise this weekend!

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Really don't see how those times are anywhere near the front of the race.

I know of a "middle of the pack" ITU swimmer (made the Olympics) and had a 17:45 1500 LCM. The likes of Laidlow, Bogen, Funk, Mignon, Blu, Iden, Bergere, Wilde, Luis, Schoeman (and the list goes on and on these days) are that level due to their juniors/SC background so will be putting 3 minutes easily on Sanders and Long.

Really don't see how those times are anywhere near the front of the race. //

And for the 100th time, he isn't training to be near the front of the race in the swim, just in the chasing group. None of those guys you mentioned are the ones he is hoping to be with, it is the guys that they drop. The 18 to 19+ minute ones that guys like him and Sam can draft off of...Really need to stop setting up these impossible goals for him, just some realistic ones where he can then do his thing in the bike/run and be competitive at the front, at the end of the race where it matters...

LS did a swim meet in Dec with 1500m (SCM) that *converted to 19:37. So 2 months he's swam the same time. Now I'm not a fan of check in "test sets" in a big block. I find them to be too potentially "negative" for the mindset if you aren't careful. I'm of the mindset you just go into a big block, work your ass off and then see how it plays out in real world conditions (swim meet to me isn't real world conditions for an triathlete). I remember years ago when I was coaching athletes within the CRP (fast tracking single sport to ITU level), they would always require us to "test set" athletes in the various disciplines every 6 weeks for funding purposes for training purposes, etc. What I found most of the time that the stress from the "test set" was far too much of a detriment and that the quality sessions you give an athlete are weekly "test sets" that you the coach use to evaluate training. I also wouldn't put too much stock into a swim meet after 2 months of what I believe to be doulbe the normal swim volume LS has had. Now of course, there's no way in hell I'm having an athlete compete in a swim meet when you know damn well the psyche of an athlete can be on the line. I just wouldn't even consider it, there's no real point; he's likely full on fatigued from full on swim volume + now he's adding bigger B/R volume (even if he's doing this after some "down" week of training). As I said 2 months ago, put your head down for 4 months go race and use that as the metric to know where we are going.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Thanks for keeping an eye out for the splits. My guess is Lionel just held his pace and it didn’t very much. My guess is Sam dropped off a lot after starting too hot.

But re the earlier swim you mention I am a bit confused by that - do you mean it converted to a 1937? If it was a SCM swim then was that the time, or it converted to some other format?

If two months of work he now swims the same time in long course he did in short course meters two months ago that is good progress.

LCM is far more difficult than SCM or yards

I don’t fully agree with the idea that you don’t put stock into a swim 2 months after a 100 percent increase in swim volume. If you can’t improve or have not improved with double the swim volume and an emphasis on swim for that time something is not right. Obviously it needs to be consolidated later in race results but 2 months of double the work is plenty to drop time

So they updated the splits:
LS's:


100m- 1:16.83
200m- 2:38.44
400m- 5:19.73
(1:18.55 100m avg w/ last 100m swam at 1:14.89)

SL:


100m- 1:13.71
200m- 2:34.13
400m- 5:15.69
(1:20.03 100m avg w/ 1ast 100m swam at 1:18.18)


So LS didn't "take it out" like Sam did, of course we won't know what that means but for LS to be able to drop that last 100m means he def laid back with the effort; but with the tactics of a race the 1st surge is more important to be able to that speed and then be able to "hold on" when the pace comes back down; sorta the opposite of what LS did here and what Long did; but again without any context it's all just conjecture)

LS came even to Sam at 600m and then pulled away from there.


I'm saying I'm not really taking a lot of stock that he "didnt set a PR" in this meet after 2 months of high volume training. The 1st comment was comparing his time to his PR he set what 5 or 6 years ago. IMO you don't double your volume, take 1 down week and suddenly setting PR's. Hell we don't even know if it was a down week swim meet training week. There's some full on fatigue in an athlete at this point in this type of training approach that the 1st time you "check in" I don't think you are necessarily going to be setting PR's or should be. The improvements are likely seen in the "details" of workouts not just the 1st time you race the clock. Not in a volume increase of the likes LS is experiencing. Right now he's imo in the "I feel fucked" stage of training, not the "I feel good to race fast" stage. That imo is still months away for LS, thus why I’d rather stfu head down approach than add “stress” like this.


Again we don't even know what "improvement" is? Is his take out speed already better in workouts but he "laid back" in this swim on purpose? Not purpose? We have no clue, and I guess only he and his coaching staff knew what the plan was. But to me LS is one of those "over thinkers" that if I'm coaching him, the less time in front of the clock the better imo. I mean maybe he truly can just laugh it off, I have no clue, but based on his personality that he showcases, anytime a "clock" is added to the discussion, seems to bring a whole bunch of overthinking to the discussion. Thus I wouldnd't even have considered an race at this point in his training.

His swim in Dec was I think 19:15 SCM or whatever converts to 19:37 LCM (it's on page 1 of the "LS swim meet" thread, it was either 19:14 or 19:15).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Nice insights on the psychology there - well at least he has $100 more to his name after taking down SL. Would have felt good to let him go out hard and just grind him down and put half a pool length on him though - someone who he views as a competitor.

How do the tech suits compare to tri suits in terms of speed?

That giant bottle behind his saddle looks particularly silly.

My understanding is a tech suit gives you about 1 second and a tri skin suit gives 2-3 seconds

This is per 100

Lcb did a video about it comparing the normal bathers, the skin and the wetsuit and I figure she’s a fairly reliable source. A wetsuit was another 2-3 seconds per 100 quicker for her. This all over a 500 long course hard effort

Lucy swam a 17,20 in the lead up to breaking the Kona record in a long course pool, so that’s 109s per 100 , as a comparison. So she laps them twice.

Lionel got the new arena goggles going by the looks of it

This is something I don’t like about swimming and swimming in triathlon. All the equipment stuff. Back in the 90s they just used to wear the small speedo bottoms and that was good enough for Ian Thorpe to go 145 and 341 in a 2 and 4.

I mean you can tell I am a complete idiot when I complain about the equipment amounts in swimming, and we are not even at biking levels

Can someone offer context on these times? What would we expect is necessary for a front pack swim? What do we think a guy who is better at swimming but not a top swimmer like Magnus could do?

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Didn't Lucy swim 16:45 in the Olympic trials a few years back? Granted, probably closer to 17:15-30 with tri training but Lucy would probably not be front pack with the men - although in a pack could hang?

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

I’m not so sure about Magnus. I don’t know anything about him except he’s good at riding a bike.

Honest assessment of these times? Not too bad for a weekend warrior but room for improvement for a pro

a 18,30 converts to around a 15,55 for a 5k. I guess everyone has their own assessment of what constitutes a good time for a weekend warrior on the 5k

One of the best open water swimmers I know swam a 19 minute flat 1500 in his early 40s but could race and beat guys who would swim 1 -1.5 minute faster than him in the pool over that distance in the ocean

I think if can swim a 430-442 400m long course in with a good shot to be in the big pack at big iron man races. What do people think of that ?

And yes Lucy would definitely swim with the front runners. The time I quoted was in IM training not when she did her trials preparation

What conversion formula/table are you using for this?